The Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fiction - Part IV: Energy from Breeder Reactors and from Fusion?

This is the fourth part of a four-part guest post by Dr. Michael Dittmar. Dr. Dittmar is a researcher with the Institute of Particle Physics of ETH Zurich, and he also works at CERN in Geneva.

The accumulated knowledge and the prospects for commercial energy production from fission breeder and fusion reactors are analyzed in this report.

The publicly available data from past experimental breeder reactors indicate that a large number of unsolved technological problems exist and that the amount of "created" fissile material, either from the U238 → Pu239 or from the Th232 → U233 cycle, is still far below the breeder requirements and optimistic theoretical expectations. Thus huge efforts, including many basic research questions with an uncertain outcome, are needed before a large commercial breeder prototype can be designed. Even if such efforts are undertaken by the technologically most advanced countries, it will take several decades before such a prototype can be constructed. We conclude therefore, that ideas about near-future commercial fission breeder reactors are nothing but wishful thinking.

We further postulate that, no matter how far into the future we may look, nuclear fusion as an energy source is even less probable than large-scale breeder reactors, for the accumulated knowledge on this subject is already sufficient to say that commercial fusion power will never become a reality.

(Links to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd parts)

1. Introduction

Over one hundred years ago, physicists began to understand that a huge amount of energy could be obtained from mastering nuclear fusion and fission energies. For example, the production of only 1 kg of helium from hydrogen "liberates" a thermal energy of about 200 million kWh. In the sun, this fusion reaction transforms about 600 million tons of hydrogen into helium every second, thus liberating 4 × 1026 Joules per second.

The understanding of nuclear physics and its technological applications proceeded with breathtaking speed. It took only seven years from the discovery of the neutron in 1931 to the observation of the neutron induced fission of uranium at the end of 1938. This was followed, on the 2nd of December 1942, by a sustained nuclear chain reaction with a power of 0.5 Watt (and up to 200 Watt at a later time) by E. Fermi and his team in a laboratory located below the Chicago University football stadium [1]. The next steps in using nuclear energy were the explosions of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki fission bombs, on the 6th and 9th of August 1945, resulting in more than 100,000 deaths and the beginning of the nuclear arms race. Only a few years after the first fission bombs exploded, the USA and the Soviet Union had constructed hydrogen fusion bombs. These bombs were up to 1000 times more powerful than the Hiroshima fission bomb.

Also the peaceful application of nuclear fission energy advanced very quickly: by 1954, the thermal energy from a controlled fission chain reaction could be used to produce commercial electric energy [2]. During the next 30-40 years, a large number of commercial nuclear power plants were constructed in most industrialized countries.

The rapid scientific and technical success in bringing this form of power into the production of commercial energy was impressive. Many nuclear pioneers expected that nuclear fission and fusion would provide their grandchildren with cheap, clean, and essentially unlimited energy. In fact, these successes led most of us to a euphoric and blind belief in continuous scientific and technological progress.

In contrast to such dreams, nuclear fission energy nowadays is not cheap, and even the most optimistic nuclear fusion believers do not expect the first commercial fusion reactor prototype until after 2050. One observes further that nuclear fission energy has been stagnating for about ten years and that its relative share in the worldwide electric energy production has decreased from about 18% during the nineties to only 13.8% currently [3].

Furthermore, the average age of the existing nuclear power plants, the limitations of primary and secondary uranium resources as well as the problems related to nuclear proliferation and nuclear waste all lead to doubts about the prospects of the standard water moderated nuclear fission reactors. In fact, it seems clear at this point that as fossil-fuel energy production declines, sufficient energy to ensure the survival of our highly industrialized civilization cannot come from a rapid growth of nuclear fission energy of this sort.

The problem with the limited amount of economically producible uranium resources can theoretically be addressed with the mastering of the technology of nuclear fission breeder reactors. It is claimed that this technology could increase the amount of fissile material from uranium by a factor of 60-100 and much more if the thorium breeder cycle can be realized [4]. It is believed that breeder technology will enable us to bridge the time gap before nuclear fusion energy, which would become the "final solution" to all energy worries, can be mastered [5].

In this fourth and final part of the Future of Nuclear Energy report, we discuss the experience with past and current breeder reactors in Section 3. We analyze how the remaining problems will be addressed with the worldwide Generation IV breeder reactor program and with thorium based breeder reactors (Section 4). The remaining obstacles towards a controlled and sustained nuclear fusion reaction chain are presented in Section 5. In order to simplify the discussion, we start in Section 2 with some facts and basic physics principles of nuclear fission and fusion energies.

2. Energy from nuclear fission and fusion, some facts and physics

As we have discussed in detail in parts I-III of this report [6], the publicly available data on long term worldwide natural uranium supply are in conflict with even a moderate annual 1% growth rate for conventional water moderated reactors.

Consequently, believers in a bright future of nuclear energy should concentrate their efforts on either (i) the realization of nuclear fuel breeder technology based on the uranium cy­cle, U238 to PU239, and/or the thorium cycle, TH232 to U233, or (ii) the mastering of commercial nuclear fusion reaction. In this section, an overview of the existing and planned nuclear reactor types and the experience with fast breeder reactors (FBR) is given (2.1). This is followed by a basic summary of the most important principles relevant to the use of nuclear fission and fusion energies (2.2 to 2.4).

2.1. Some facts concerning existing and planned nuclear reactor types

The worldwide nuclear fission reactors produced 2601 TWhe during the year 2008, or roughly 14% of the worldwide electric energy.

For the year 2009, one finds that commercial nuclear energy production will come from 436 nuclear fission reactors with a combined nominal electric power of 370,260 GWe [7].


Table 1: The evolution of different reactor types and their corresponding electric power ratings from the IAEA/PRIS data base (October 2009) [7]. Another five reactors are listed in the "Long Term Shutdown" category, four of which are PHWR's and the fifth is the 0.25 GWe Monju sodium cooled FBR reactor in Japan.

The PRIS data base of the International Atomic Energy Administration (IAEA) shows that the dominant reactor type today including reactors that are currently under construction is the water moderated fission reactor type. The abbreviation PWR (PHWR) stands for pressurized (heavy) water reactor whereas BWR denotes the boiling water reactor. As can be seen from Table 1, these reactors provide over 94% of the nuclear fission power worldwide. The remaining 6% of the nuclear fission power comes from graphite moderated and water or gas cooled older and smaller reactors. It seems that the PWR type has won the competition for the existing reactors and for the next generation of reactors by a large margin.

One observes that only two FBR's are declared operational. A third FBR has been in a "long term shutdown phase" since 1995. The two operational FBR's contribute together 0.2% of the world nuclear power. This tiny contribution from FBR's today is even smaller than it used to be. In the list of 122 decommissioned reactors, one finds 6 FBR's with a combined power of 1.6 GWe, or 4.3%. In the list of 53 reactors (October 2009) currently under construction, one finds only two relatively small FBR's.

These numbers indicate not only that FBR's play a negligible role today and during the next 10 years, but also that their operation experience is far from being an economical and technological success story. Some more details on the worldwide experience with various types of commercial FBR and thorium fuel breeder reactors and their operation are listed below:

  • The best operation experience comes from the Russian BN-600 FBR reactor with a rated power of 0.56 GWe. This reactor has been operated commercially for 28 years and is scheduled to close in 2010 [8]. Its average energy availability is given as 73.79%. In a document from the IAEA fast reactor data base [9], one finds that this reactor would be better called a "Fast Reactor," as it was designed to use more fuel than it could produce. A new BN-800 reactor with 0.8 GWe is currently under construction in Russia, and its scheduled start is now given as 2014. Like its smaller "brother," it is designed to consume Pu239 rather than breed surplus fissile material.
  • The other "operating" FBR is the Phenix reactor in France. Phenix originally started operation with a power of 0.233 GWe in 1974. Since 1997, it is rated with 0.13 GWe only, and an energy availability factor of 60.23% is given for 2008. According to the WNA (World Nuclear Association) data base, it ceased power production in March 2009 and will continue being operated as a research reactor until October 2009 [10]. The larger Super Phenix reactor, with a power rating of 1.2 GWe, achieved a maximal energy availability of 32.6% only. This very low performance, in comparison to PWR's, was achieved during the last operational year (1996) after a very short lifetime of only 10 years.
  • The Monju reactor in Japan was closed after a serious sodium leak in 1995. For many years now, the reactor is scheduled to "restart the subsequent year." Perhaps this time, it will really restart during the first few months of 2010 [11].
  • A next generation FBR reactor is currently under construction in India. According to the current plans, it will start producing electric energy during the year 2011 [12].
  • The KNK II reactor in Germany is listed in the IAEA data base [9] with a tiny capacity of 0.017 GWe. During its operational lifetime, 1978 to 1991, it achieved an average energy availability factor of 23.65%. A larger FBR, the SNR-300, with a rated power of 0.3 GWe was completed in 1985, but for various reasons never started. A large 1.5 GWe FBR, the SNR-2, never completed even the design phase.
  • A limited experience with a thorium admixture in the nuclear fuel in commercial pro­totype reactors exists as well. A WNA document mentions two THTR's (Thorium High Temperature Reactors) [13]: one with 0.3 GWe in Germany, which operated commercially between 1986 and 1989; the second was the Fort St. Vrain reactor with a power rating of 0.33 GWe in the USA. It is listed as the only commercial thorium-fuelled nuclear plant, following closely the German design. It was operated between 1976-1989.
  • The WNA document mentions further that the experimental Shippingport reactor in the USA, with a power rating of 0.06 GWe, has successfully demonstrated the concept of a Light Water Breeder Reactor (LWBR) using thorium. The Shippingport reactor began commercial electricity produc­tion in December 1957. In 1965, the Atomic Energy Commission started designing the uranium-­233 / thorium core for the reactor. The reactor was operated as a LWBR between August 1977 and October 1982.

Several countries have so far managed to construct GWe water moderated slow neutron reactors, mostly of the PWR type. These reactors were operated safely and efficiently for many years, using U235 fuel enriched to 3-4%.

In contrast, large breeder reactors, based on a large amount of initial fissile material and the transformation of U238 and Th232 for breeding new reactor fuel, have so far not even successfully passed a prototype phase.

2.2. Energy from nuclear fission and fusion, some basics

Atoms consist of a nucleus, made of protons and neutrons, and electrons. The size and the chemical properties of atoms are defined by the number of electrons surrounding the nucleus. The combined mass of the protons and neutrons, each 2000 times heavier than the electrons, defines roughly the mass of the atoms. As the nucleus is 100,000 times smaller than the atom, it follows that its mass density is huge in comparison with that of the atom. The same chemical characteristics can be expected for atoms with a fixed number of protons and with different numbers of neutrons, and the energy in chemical reactions is of the order of 1 eV (1.6 × 10-19 Joule). As the nuclear properties of an atom depend on the number of neutrons, the name isotope has been introduced to separate the chemically identical atoms according to their numbers of neutrons.

Without going into details, it is known today that the energy source of the sun and other stars is nuclear fusion. This fusion starts from the large number of hydrogen atoms present in the sun. The fusion reaction in stars is possible because of the enormous gravitational pressure that overcomes the electric repulsive force between positively charged protons. Fusion is the source of all heavier elements that were formed in super-novae explosions of super large early stars and shortly after the big bang. For our subsequent discussions on nuclear fusion, it is important to note that a relatively low fusion power density of about 0.3 Watt/m3, is found in the sun [14]. In contrast, the power density envisaged for a hypothetical fusion reactor must be at least one million times larger.

The nucleus is bound by the very strong nuclear force, which acts against the repulsive electrostatic force of the protons. Measurements have shown that the mass of the various atoms is almost 1% smaller than the mass of the individual protons and neutrons combined. Following Einstein's famous E = mc2 formula, this mass defect corresponds to a huge amount of energy, about 8 MeV (8 million eV) per nucleon. This energy is liberated when one manages to fusion different nucleons together. Starting from the different hydrogen isotopes, e.g. one proton, deuterium (one proton plus one neutron), and tritium (one proton plus two neutrons), a binding energy of up to a few MeV is found. Further fusion of these hydrogen isotopes into the helium nucleus liberates another roughly 20 MeV.

Neutrons and protons in heavy atoms, such as uranium, are less strongly bound than in lighter atoms, such as iron, and energy can be released in the fission of such heavy atoms. For example, 1 MeV per nucleon, or 200 MeV in total, will be liberated in the fission processes of U233, U235, and U238, each containing 92 protons and 141, 143, and 146 neutrons, respectively. The energy liberated per fission reaction is at least 100 million times larger than in a chemical reaction.

It is therefore not surprising that this has created an enormous interest in subatomic physics and its application for ultimate weapons and/or for the commercial use of energy.

2.2.1. Civilian and military use of nuclear energy, some remarks

The focus of this report is the commercial use of nuclear energy. As the evolution of nuclear energy has always been strongly coupled with the military sector, we feel that a few remarks about the dangers of nuclear weapons and the ambiguity of the commercial use of nuclear energy are needed. First of all, governments wishing to have nuclear weapons were not faced with unsolvable problems related to the development of fission bombs based on Pu239 and U235. This is especially true if nuclear physics and engineering knowhow had been built up under the umbrella of peaceful and commercial use of nuclear fission energy.

Furthermore, it is interesting to notice that advocates of nuclear fission energy like to explain why the dangers from nuclear weapons are far less alarming than believed. This is usually followed by the statement that their praised future nuclear energy technology will avoid proliferation problems. A similar appeasement in their argumentation is found with respect to safety and radiation issues. The existing nuclear power plants are claimed to be very safe, and risks are small compared to many other dangers of modern life. Yet, when their favorite future nuclear energy system is being introduced, it is always pointed out that it further reduces the remaining risks by a large factor.

For example it is often argued that U233 produced in a future Th232 breeding cycle will be useless for nuclear weapons. This argument is certainly flawed as countries who want to have nuclear weapon capability will most likely choose the simpler way to make a bomb using Pu239 or U235. Yet, those who know how to breed and separate hundreds of kg's of U233 can easily replace Th232 with U238 and produce a few tens of kg's of Pu239, sufficient to construct a few nuclear bombs.

Those not yet convinced of the mutual support of peaceful and military applications of nuclear energy technology should rethink their positions with respect to the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty, the NPT, and to the so-called "evil" government of Iran.

A careful reading of the treaty [15] reveals that Iran, at least so far, is in agreement with the NPT obligations. However one finds that NPT member countries should not exchange nuclear knowledge with nuclear weapon countries outside the treaty. It is also worth remembering that the official nuclear weapon states, Russia, USA, UK, France, and China, have declared in the treaty their intention to eliminate nuclear weapons as quickly as possible. Almost forty years after these countries signed the NPT, they still have more than 20,000 nuclear warheads.

The nuclear arms race at the end of the second world war and during the subsequent cold war is well documented in many reports, books, and movies, and we refer to the extensive literature largely available now on the internet. Especially for those who are not yet convinced about the dangers of nuclear weapons, we would like to recommend the short you-tube video on the largest explosion ever, the 60 Megaton hydrogen bomb in Siberia in 1961 [16] and to Stanley Kubric's masterpiece movie "Dr. Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb" from 1964 [17]. This film, even though almost 50 years old, presents many still relevant ideas related to the 20,000 remaining nuclear warheads.

2.3. Liberating the energy from nuclear fission and fusion

As we have seen in the previous section, a large amount of energy per reaction can be liberated from the fusion of light elements and from the fission of heavy elements like uranium. However at least two additional conditions must be satisfied before such a process can be considered for energy production.

  • In order to obtain a useful amount of energy from nuclear reactions, a continuous and controllable fission or fusion must be achieved for a large number of atoms. For example 1020 U235 atoms, i.e., 0.05 gr, the amount of U235 found in 6 gr of natural uranium, need to be split every second in a 1 GWe nuclear fission reactor.
  • Enough raw material must be continuously available to sustain this chain reaction.

Only three relevant isotopes satisfy these conditions for the nuclear fission process. These are the two uranium isotopes U235 and U233 and the plutonium isotope Pu239. The energy liberated in the fission process is carried dominantly (about 80%) by the two daughter atoms. This energy is relatively easily transferred to a liquid or gas, and the heat can be used to operate a generator.

The chain reaction is possible as each neutron induced fission reaction produces on average between 2-3 neutrons. As one neutron is needed to initiate another fission reaction, 1-2 excess neutrons minus some inevitable losses are in principle available to increase the reactor power or perhaps to start a nuclear fuel breeding process. The introduction of neutron absorbers allows to control the reactivity of the nuclear reaction and thus to increase or decrease the reactor power.

As we have seen in Section 2.1, most of the large scale nuclear power plants of today are of the PWR (pressurized water reactor) type. They use dominantly U235 as primary reactor fuel. In these reactors, the prompt fission neutrons, with kinetic energies of 1 MeV, are slowed down (moderated) by elastic collisions with the hydrogen nuclei in the water molecules to subeV kinetic energies. The nuclear fission probability with such slow neutrons is increased by a factor of up to several hundred. As a consequence, a large reactor can be efficiently operated and controlled with a relatively low initial enrichment of U235, and large scale power production with moderated neutrons has been mastered by many countries. The combined running experience of such large scale reactors, currently more than 13,000 years, has resulted in stable electric energy production combined with small or negligible risks during regular operation up to an electric power output of more than 1 GWe.

In contrast, the neutron escape rate in smaller reactors and in unmoderated fast reactors is much higher. Therefore, a chain reaction in FBR's with comparable reactor power is more difficult to control, and a larger amount of initial fissile material with a higher density is needed. One consequence is that the required technology to make such highly enriched nuclear fuel will always be faced with the problem of its dual use for bomb making.

The use of the excess neutrons for the transformation of the U238 and Th232 isotopes into fissile Pu239 and U233 looks very promissing, as the amount of fissile material could be increased theoretically by a factor of more than one hundred. The breeding reactions considered would use the excess neutrons according the two reactions:

Some advantages and disadvantages for the U238 → Pu239 and the Th232 → U233 breeding cycles and some practical problems are listed in Table 2. Some of these problems and their proposed solutions will be discussed in detail in Sections 3 and 4 of this report. So far only little or no experience exists with large scale GWe breeder prototypes.


Table 2: A qualitative comparison of the fissile breeding cycles with U238 and Th232. The breeding gain is defined as the ratio of (C-D)/F, where C, D, and F are the numbers of fissile atoms created, destroyed, and fissioned. In order to be called a breeder, more fissile material must be created than fissioned, and the breeding gain must be larger than zero. The “(?)” indicates guestimates, as good information has so far not been found by the author.

We now turn to the fusion process. Nuclear fusion can happen, once the short range nuclear force between nucleons becomes larger than the electrostatic repulsive force between two positively charged nuclei. This can happen if the protons involved either have large kinetic energies or if the protons are compressed by super large gravitational fields as observed in stars. Very high kinetic energies correspond to nucleus temperatures of several tens to hundred million degrees. Such high kinetic energies can be obtained for example in accelerators but only for small numbers. Larger amounts of fusion reactions can be obtained in special magnetic field arrangements.

It follows from first principles that the sometimes discussed "cold fusion" reaction is in contradiction with well established knowledge of subatomic physics. As the repulsive force increases with the number of protons involved, the conditions to achieve fusion with atoms heavier than hy­drogen and its isotopes become more and more difficult. It follows that fusion reactions based for example on the "proton-boron" reaction and many others are only possible using accelerators. Ideas to use accelerators for continuous fusion reactions with commercially interesting GW power prove to be wishful thinking once the required amount of 1021 fusion reactions per second is considered. The very low efficiency for transforming electric energy into kinetic energy of proton beams poses another fundamental problem for such exotic ideas.

The probability of a fusion reaction depends on the product of the plasma temperature and the fusion reaction cross-section. The deuterium-tritium fusion is a factor of 100 to 1000 easier to achieve than the next two fusion reactions of deuterium and He32 and deuterium-deuterium, respectively. As it is already extremely difficult to achieve even the lowest interesting plasma temperatures on the required large scale, it follows that the only possible fusion reaction under reactor conditions is the deuterium-tritium fusion into helium (He42).

An additional advantage of this reaction is the fact that the produced additional neutron carries 14 MeV of the liberated energy of almost 18 MeV per fusion reaction out of the plasma zone. Thus in theory, it can be imagined that the 4 MeV carried by the helium nucleus are used to keep the plasma temperature high enough, and that the neutron energy is transferred somehow to another cooling medium. This medium is imagined to transfer the heat to a generator.

Unfortunately tritium is unstable; its half life is only 12.3 years; and it does not exist in sizable amounts on our planet. It must therefore be produced in a breeding process. A possible chain reaction could follow the scheme:

In comparison to the breeding and energy extraction in fission reactions, at least three additional fundamental problems can be identified for the fusion process:

  • A sustained super high temperature, at least 10 million degrees, is required in order to have fusion reactions happening at an interesting rate. Such high temperatures can be achieved in some special magnetic field arrangements or in a tiny volume with very intense laser or particle beams. Unfortunately, no material is known that can survive the intense neutron flux under sustained reactor conditions and the sometimes occurring plasma eruptions.
  • It is difficult to transfer the energy from the 14 MeV neutron to a gas or a liquid without neutron losses.
  • The considered breeding reaction requires essentially that 100% of the produced neutrons must be used to make tritium. As this is even theoretically impossible, some additional nuclear reactions are proposed where heavier nucleons act as neutron multipliers. However so far, even the most optimistic and idealized theoretical calculations have failed to produce neutrons in sufficient numbers.

In short, the accumulated knowledge today indicates that the proposed fusion reaction is unsus­tainable and cannot lead to a sustainable power production. This statement will be corroborated with more details in Section 5.

2.4. Dangers related to radioactive material

We will conclude this section with some issues related to radioactive elements produced and liberated in the use of nuclear energy and the related dangers from ionizing radiation. First of all, there are three types of radioactive decays, producing α, β, and γ radiation. In addition, cosmic rays and various particles produced in high energy physics experiments should also be considered as a potential radiation hazard.

The damage to cells is related to the ionizing potential or the energy deposit per volume originating from a source. The hazard is usually split into high and low radiation dose effects. Very high radiation dose and the corresponding energy deposit result in fast cell death. If large and concentrated enough, the result can be the destruction of vital organs and death. It is important to know that the careless use of radiation during the early days of nuclear physics and its applications have resulted in relatively high cancer rates among the participating scientists and engineers [18].

The more tricky and less well understood damage comes from small dose and long-term effects to the cell DNA. While some self-repair mechanism to broken DNA exists, it is also known that a single unlucky hit by a cosmic ray can transform the normal DNA into a cancer developing DNA, resulting in the death of the host many years later. It follows that the importance of small radiation doses for the development of a particular cancer type and in comparison to many other causes like smoking and asbestos is difficult to quantify. As a result, the associated cancer risks from small radiation doses will continue to fuel the emotional debate about nuclear energy for a long time.

Despite these uncertainties, today the precautionary principle is used in many countries, and very strict rules for people working in a radiation environment are applied. These rules are often summa­rized under the name ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable). The goal to reduce any radiation exposure to essentially negligible levels is one of the most important occupations of a radiation safety group. As a result of these efforts, assuming that expensive protection measures are taken, the health risks from radioactive contamination under "normal operation conditions" are often much smaller than risks associated with working hazards in many other industrial domains. However, time pressure and profit optimization will always be in competition with ever more strengthened safety regulations.

It is also evident that it is essentially impossible to guarantee "normal operation" of the nuclear industry with its accumulating waste over periods of hundreds of years. A solution to these problems is, as with other similar long-term problems of our industrial growth-based societies, left for future generations.

3. Experience with real breeder reactors

Breeder reactors are based on the idea that only one neutron, out of the 2.5 neutrons on average from the fission of U235 and U233 (and 2.9 neutrons from Pu239), is required to keep the chain reaction going. It can thus be imagined, even if some neutron losses are allowed, that the additional neutrons can be used to make more nuclear fuel from U238 or Th232 than fissioned. Accordingly, a reactor is defined as a breeder reactor if more fissile material is produced than consumed.

The number of free neutrons per fission reaction is η = (σf a) × v, where σf is the neutron induced fission cross-section, and σa the neutron absorption (the sum of the neutron capture and fission) cross-section, and v is the average number of prompt fission neutrons [19]. The fission to capture ratio and thus η depend on the neutron energy and the different possible isotopes. As one neutron is required to sustain the chain reaction, breeding is only possible if η is larger than 2. This condition is found for Pu239, U235, and U233 fission, where η for prompt fast fission neutrons is 2.7, 2.3, and 2.45, respectively. For thermal (moderated) neutrons, U233 has the highest η value of 2.3, followed by 2.11 for Pu239, and 2.07 for U235.

Some Pu239 fuel production happens also in standard PWR reactors. Depending on the reactor and fuel design characteristics as well as the amount of remaining fissile fuel in the reactor, up to 30% and more of the produced energy comes from the secondary Pu239 fission.

Two theoretical breeder options exist:

  • The use of thermal neutrons and Th232 as input breeding material.
  • The use of fast prompt neutrons dominantly from Pu239 fission, thus the name fast reactor, with U238 as the breeding material.

The use of the Th232 → U233 cycle seems, at least on a first glance, more attractive. The reaction can occur in the high fission cross-section domain using moderated neutrons. The fission process with moderated neutrons is well understood, relatively easy to control, and already in use with the standard nuclear water moderated reactors. It seems that in principle one only needs sufficient amounts of U233 mixed with Th232 in order to keep such a reactor operating. Some of the remaining technical obstacles will be discussed in Section 4.4.

For the U238 → Pu239 breeder cycle, one has to operate the fission process, either starting with U235 or Pu239, in the low fission cross-section domain. As a consequence, such reactors have to be operated with highly enriched U235 (HEU) or Pu239 fuels. Thus, one is not only confronted with special safety conditions for a large amount of bomb making material, but also with a huge amount of fissile material that could under certain conditions reach the critical mass resulting in an uncontrolled chain reaction followed by a nuclear meltdown. Furthermore, the cooling of the active reactor zone has to be done with a low neutron absorption cross-section and a high thermal conducting material like liquid sodium. Unfortunately, sodium is chemically very active and can easily burn in contact with oxygen.

3.1. The Shippingport LWBR thorium reactor

The experience with the thorium breeder cycle comes mainly from research at the US Shippingport reactor, rated with a net power of 0.06 GWe. This reactor operated during the 60s, 70s, and 80s. In 1965, the Atomic Energy Commission started designing the uranium-233 / thorium core for the reactor. The reactor was operated as a LWBR between August 1977 and October 1982.

According to the documentation, the reactor was started with a highly enriched 98% U233 inven­tory of 501 kg and a total of 42,260 kg of Th232 [20]. No details are given about the origin of the 501 kg of U233. However, one can assume that it came from a standard U235 fission reactor, where excess neutrons can be used to transform Th232 (or U238) blankets into U233 (or Pu239).

The reactor had a maximum thermal power of 0.2366 MW (therm) and was operated for 29,047 effective full hours, or about 66% of the time. After five years of operation, a very detailed analysis of the fuel elements was performed. It was found that the total U233 inventory had increased to 507.5 kg, a factor of 1.013. While it is impressive that the reactor could be operated and fueled with Th232 over a period of 5 years, the U233 gain was only about 6 kg of fissile material.

Assuming that such a reactor is supposed to eventually produce the U233 starting fuel for another reactor, it will take a long time before the second package of initial reactor core has been produced. Significant technological breakthroughs are required before this chain can be called feasible on a large scale.

The documents do not say much about the contamination of the 507.5 kg of U233 with fission products and its usefulness for further studies after this five year experiment. The fact that no subsequent reactor experiment has been performed might provide a partial answer to this question.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the initial concentration of fissile material in a reactor with only 0.237 GW (therm) energy was very large. It can be estimated that this amount, placed in a standard PWR, could have produced at least 5 times more electric energy than it had during the actual experiment.

In contrast to the experiments performed at the Shippingport reactor, where the initial core was already U233, a realistic Th232 reactor cycle must be started with an initial U235 or Pu239 core. Consequently, the experience gained with the Shippingport reactor experiment cannot be considered as a proof that the envisaged system can function. It follows that many more tests are needed, before a functioning large-scale prototype Th232 breeder reactor can be constructed.

3.2. Experience with fast reactors

For the purpose of this report, concerning the future of nuclear energy, we are mainly interested in the situation with the most important aspect, the question of the fuel breeding option. Unfortunately very little information is provided for the experimental breeding achievements, and most reports present the theoretical design breeding ratios. For example the breeding ratio for the FBR Phenix reactor in France is given in many textbooks as 1.14 [21]. This number corresponds however to the theoretical design, and it seems that a detailed experimental analysis, like the one done for the Th232 to U233 cycle and the Shippingport reactor, is either secret or has not been performed.

Despite the missing experimental data of achieved breeding gains, the IAEA document [22] about the FBR core characteristics provides useful information about the design of such reactors. In this document, a large number of FBR reactors, separated into (1) experimental fast reactors, (2) demonstration of prototype fast reactors, and (3) reactors of commercial size, are presented.

The breeding gain, defined as the ratio of (C-D)/F, where C, D, and F are the number of fissile atoms created, destroyed, and fissioned, and other characteristics of different fast reactors are summarized in Table 3.


Table 3: Some design values for the three groups of fast reactors, experimental, demonstra­tion or prototype, and commercial size [22]. Reactors marked with a "*" are currently under construction. The design numbers can be compared with the ones of existing large commercial 1 GWe PWR reactors, assuming an average charge of 500 tons of natural equivalent, given in the last line. The "**" and "***" stand for a mixture of different plutonium isotopes dominated by Pu239 and the amount within the initial core, respectively.

It is very unfortunate that experimental breeding gains are not given in the IAEA fast reactor data base. In absence of any detailed publication, one can assume that the required detailed and very expensive isotope analysis of the reactor fuel has not been performed or published. The theoretical hopes for fuel breeding are thus not backed up with hard experimental data. Nevertheless, already the theoretical breeding gains of the different FBR's are revealing. Ten out of the twelve small experimental reactors were operated in a configuration not for breeding. The other two experimental reactors, listed in Table 3, are the Joyo in Japan and the Fermi in the USA. The Joyo reactor was not designed for the production of electric energy. The Fermi reactor operated for a few years and had a partial core meltdown in 1966. This reactor was the first and only effort in the USA to operate a larger scale breeder reactor and was terminated in 1972.

Another twelve demonstration or prototype reactors are listed in the IAEA report. Among them are the Monju reactor in Japan, the "Russian/Soviet" BN-600, and the Phenix reactor in France.

Only the BN-600 reactor is currently operational and is often considered as the prime example of a successfully operating FBR reactor. However, the IAEA document reveals that this reactor was designed with a negative breeding gain of -0.15.

In comparison, the Phenix and Monju reactors are presented with theoretical breeding gains of 0.16 and 0.2, respectively. It is interesting to note that the potentially better constructed next generation PFBR reactor in India, currently expected to start in 2011, is given with a much smaller theoretical breeding gain of only 0.05.

The third FBR group in the IAEA document describes commercial size reactors. Eleven out of the listed thirteen large FBR projects have been abandoned before any construction plans have been presented, or exist currently only in the design phase. Only one reactor, the Super Phenix reactor in France, has produced some electric energy. During its short operation time, it was operated with a very low efficiency and cannot be considered as a successful breeder prototype. A new commercial size fast reactor is under construction in Russia. The BN-800 is currently scheduled to become operational during the year 2014. It is however quantified with a negative breeding gain of -0.02.

A further confirmation that the BN-800 reactor is not a breeder comes from a WNA document [23], where the reactor is described as:

"It has improved features including fuel flexibility - U+Pu nitride, MOX, or metal, and with breeding ratio up to 1.3. However, during the plutonium disposition campaign it will be operated with a breeding ratio of less than one."

A possible interpretation of this statement could be that plutonium stocks are already a delicate problem and that Russia wants to get rid of them.

In summary, the IAEA data base for fast reactors does not present any evidence that a positive breeding gain has been obtained with past and present FBR reactors. On the contrary, the presented data indicate at best that a more efficient nuclear fuel use than in standard PWR reactors can be achieved during normal running conditions. However, once the short and inefficient running times of FBR's, in comparison with large scale PWR's, are taken into account, even this better fuel use has not been demonstrated. In fact, the required initial fuel load in FBR's contains at least twice as much natural uranium equivalent and with a fissile material enrichment that is roughly 5 times larger than that in a comparable PWR. A fair comparison of the fuel efficiency should include the efficiency to recycle fissile material from used nuclear fuel in both reactor types.

Three more areas of concern for a future breeder program should be added:

  • Fast reactors are known for their worrying safety record. For example, it might be true that serious incidents, like the one that happened with the Chernobyl graphite moderated reactor, cannot happen with modern PWR's. However, only very few nuclear experts would agree to such a statement for sodium cooled FBR's.
  • FBR’s are known for their huge construction costs relative to PWR's, and it might be tempting to compare some of the past FBR's to a monetary "black hole." An equivalent of 3.5 billion Euros has been invested in the construction of the SNR-300 in Germany. Because of safety concerns related to sodium leaks and other problems, this small FBR has never started operation. This amount of money corresponds to the price tag for a five times more powerful modern PWR reactor.
  • A third problem is related to the FBR requirements to have a large inventory of high purity fissile material. The amount of fissile material listed in Table 3 should be compared to the few tens of kgs required for a Pu239 bomb. This problem makes even small experimental FBR reactors highly sensitive to the proliferation problem.

4. Future breeder reactors

As our short overview in Section 2 has already demonstrated, neither sodium cooled FBR reactors based on U238 → Pu239 nor the Th232 → U233 cycle are fashionable commercial reactor types.

As a consequence of the observation that known uranium deposits are limited, scientists from many countries have joined forces and created during the year 2001 the Generation IV reactor forum [24].

In their own words (quote):

"The Generation IV International Forum, or GIF, was chartered in July 2001 to lead the col­laborative efforts of the world's leading nuclear technology nations to develop next generation nuclear energy systems to meet the world's future energy needs."

The work of over 100 experts from ten countries, including Argentina, Brazil, Canada, France, Japan, Republic of Korea, South Africa, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and from the International Atomic Energy Agency and the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency has re­sulted at the end of the year 2002 in a roadmap document with the title:

A Technology Roadmap for Generation IV Nuclear Energy Systems

After the definition of the goals, identifying promising concepts, their evaluation, and the estima­tion of the required R&D efforts, six systems have been selected. The selection was based on their estimation that they (quote):

"feature increased safety, improved economics for electricity production, and new products such as hydrogen for transportation applications, reduced nuclear wastes for disposal, and increased prolifera­tion resistance."

Within the context of this analysis, we are mainly interested to know whether the acknowledged U235 fuel shortages can be solved with future breeder reactors. Therefore, we will only take a closer look at the three FBR's and the one design that has the potential to become a Th232 based thermal breeder. According to a WNA document from August 2009 [25]:

"At least four of the systems have significant operating experience already in most respects of their design, which provides a good basis for further R&D and is likely to mean that they can be in com­mercial operation well before 2030."

It is remarkable that the same WNA document contradicts this statement a few lines later:

"However, it is significant that to address non-proliferation concerns, the fast neutron reactors are not conventional fast breeders, i.e. they do not have a blanket assembly where plutonium-239 is pro­duced. Instead, plutonium production takes place in the core, where burn-up is high and the proportion of plutonium isotopes other than Pu239 remains high. In addition, new reprocessing technologies will enable the fuel to be recycled without separating the plutonium."

4.1. Some details about Generation IV breeder reactors

The Generation IV roadmap document from the year 2002 describes a detailed planning for what needs to be achieved during the next 10-20 years. Depending on the results, one might be able to decide which of the different future reactor concepts can be used to construct real prototype FBR's.

The qualitative proposed research plans for the three FBR's and the Th232 reactor can be sum­marized as follows:

  • The Gas-cooled Fast Reactor System (GFR) is based on a helium-cooled reactor with a small thermal power of roughly 0.5 GW only. A large number of major technological gaps are mentioned in the roadmap leading to a research program of about 20 years and a cost of 940 million US Dollars.
  • The Lead-cooled Fast Reactor System (LFR) with a possible thermal power between 0.1 GW and 3.6 GW. A relatively long list of "technology gaps" for the LFR is presented, including even some insufficient knowledge of neutron interaction cross-sections. A 15-20 year R&D program with a price tag of 990 million US Dollars is needed before any further statements about the realization of this concept can be made.
  • The Sodium-cooled Fast Reactor System (SFR) with a thermal power rating between 1 - 5 GW. This concept is closely related to the doubtful success with past sodium-cooled fast reactors in France, Japan, Germany, the UK, Russia, and the United States. It is said that this reactor must be capable of also using the thermal neutron spectrum, because the startup fuel for the fast reactor must come ultimately from spent thermal reactor fuel. The list of technology gaps includes the need to ensure a "passive safe response design base," a "capital cost reduction," and the "proof that a reactor has the ability to accommodate bounding events." A somewhat frightening conclusion of this statement might be that previous sodium prototype FBR's did not satisfy any of these basic reactor safety standards. It is also mentioned that this sodium cooled reactor is the most advanced FBR system. The required R&D program to investigate the remaining problems could be completed over a period of less than 15 years and for 610 million US Dollars.
  • The Molten Salt Reactor system (MSR) is imagined as 1 GWe reactor with a net thermal efficiency of 44-50%. The design assumes the use of either U238 or Th232 as fertile fuel dissolved as fluorides in the molten salt and that it can operate with thorium as a thermal breeder. The technology gaps mentioned contain a large number of items related to the chemistry of molten salts as well as the need for more accurate basic neutron cross-sections for compositions of molten salt. The time scale of the required R&D program is 15-20 years with an associated price tag of 1000 million US Dollars.

The Generation IV roadmap document can be summarized with the statement that the known technological gaps to construct even prototype breeder reactors were enormous at the time when the document was written. These unknowns are addressed with a detailed planning for the required re­search projects and the associated cost. Only after these problems shall have been solved, a design and construction of expensive prototype breeder reactors can start.

We are now at the end of the year 2009 and almost half of the originally planned R&D period is over. Essentially no progress results have been presented and the absence of large funding during the past eight years gives little confidence that even the most basic questions for the Generation IV reactors program can be answered during the next few years. Thus, it seems that the Generation IV roadmap is already totally outdated and unrealistic.

This is confirmed by the latest statements at the Global 2009 conference in September 2009 by B. Bigot, the chairman of the French Atomic Energy Commission, which indicate that the plan to have the reactors ready by the year 2030 is now delayed to 2040 and onwards. According to the Website "Supporters of Nuclear Energy," Bigot said "from 2040 onwards, France is planning to use Generation IV FBR's when renewing its fleet" [26].

4.2. The Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP)

Another initiative, the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP) [27] was announced by President Bush in his 2006 State of the Union address. By September 2007, all major nuclear energy countries, except for Germany and a few others, have signed the statement of principles. According to the U.S. Department of Energy, the goals of the initiative are (quote):

"First, reduce Americas dependence on foreign sources of fossil fuels and encourage economic growth. Second, recycle nuclear fuel using new proliferation-resistant technologies to recover more en­ergy and reduce waste. Third, encourage prosperity growth and clean development around the world. And fourth, utilize the latest technologies to reduce the risk of nuclear proliferation worldwide."

However in June 2009, the U.S. Department of Energy announced that it is no longer pursuing domestic commercial reprocessing, and had largely halted the domestic GNEP program. Research would continue on proliferation-resistant fuel cycles and waste management.

According to a WNA press information [28], the status of this initiative is:

"Although the future of GNEP looks uncertain, with its budget having been cut to zero, the DoE will continue to study proliferation-resistant fuel cycles and waste management strategies."

It follows that the GNEP initiative will not result in the construction of future breeder reactors.

4.3. Ideas about using thorium as a reactor fuel

During the past years, a large number of articles and books, websites and blogs propose the use of thorium as the breeder material for future nuclear reactors [29]. The promoters advocate many interesting possibilities, indicating that the Th232 cycle might have lots of advantages compared to the U238 breeder cycles in FBR's.

The main problem with these "great" new insights into the use of nuclear fission energy seems to be that nobody from the nuclear energy establishment is interested.

As a result, little or no private and public research money is invested into the question of how to develop a thorium breeder reactor. Ignoring the possibility that past investigations into the thorium fuel cycle have revealed several important problems, one needs to speculate about other reasons.

  • that the established nuclear energy experts do not like to see competition from outsiders, or
  • that the nuclear fusion community has managed to dominate the entire nuclear energy research domain, and that the available research budgets are already allocated to the ITER plasma research project.

If either of these two possibilities contains some truth, those in favor of developing a thorium breeder re­actor should start taking a strong position against the current nuclear energy establishment. They should point out that (i) the current use of nuclear energy has no perspective because of the limited amount of available uranium resources, (ii) the Th232 breeder cycle is by orders of magnitude better than the ideas about U238 breeder cycles with FBR's, and (iii) nuclear fusion is at least 50-100 years away. Leaving these more political issues aside, we would like to repeat some rational statements and the otherwise rarely mentioned problems about the use of the Th232 breeder cycle from the WNA information article [30] entitled:

Developing a thorium-based fuel cycle

where one can read that:

"In one significant respect U233 is better than uranium-235 and plutonium-239, because of its higher neutron yield per neutron absorbed. Given a start with some other fissile material (U233, U235 or Pu239) as a driver, a breeding cycle similar to but more efficient than that with U238 and plutonium (in normal, slow neutron reactors) can be set up. (The driver fuels provide all the neutrons initially, but are progressively supplemented by U233 as it forms from the thorium.) However, there are also features of the neutron economy which counter this advantage. In particular the intermediate product protactinium-233 (Pa233) is a neutron absorber which diminishes U233 yield."

The statement continues with:

"Despite the thorium fuel cycle having a number of attractive features, development has always run into difficulties."

The main attractive features are:

  • The possibility of utilizing an abundantly available resource that has hitherto been of so little interest that it has never even been properly quantified.
  • The production of power with few long-lived transuranic elements in the waste.
  • A reduction of radioactive waste, in general.

The problems include:

  • The high cost of fuel fabrication due partly to the high radioactivity of U233 chemically sepa­rated from the irradiated thorium fuel.
  • Separated U233 is always contaminated with traces of U232 (69 year half-life but whose daugh­ter products such as thallium-208 are strong gamma emitters with very short half-lives). Although this confers proliferation resistance to the fuel cycle, it results in increased costs.
  • The similar problems in recycling thorium itself due to highly radioactive Th-228 (an alpha emitter with two-year half life) present.
  • Some concern over weapons proliferation risk of U233 (if it could be separated on its own), although many designs such as the Radkowsky Thorium Reactor address this concern. The tech­nical problems in reprocessing solid fuels are not yet satisfactorily solved. However with some designs, in particular the molten salt reactor (MSR), these problems are likely to largely disap­pear.
  • Much development work is still required, before the thorium fuel cycle can be commercialized, and the effort required seems unlikely while (or where) abundant uranium is available. In this respect, recent international moves to bring India into the ambit of international trade might result in the country ceasing to persist with the thorium cycle, as it now has ready access to traded uranium and conventional reactor designs.

The WNA article concludes with the following diplomatic statement:

"Nevertheless, the thorium fuel cycle, with its potential for breeding fuel without the need for fast neutron reactors, holds considerable potential in the long-term. It is a significant factor in the long-term sustainability of nuclear energy."

A "logic" interpretation of the WNA statement and the list of arguments about thorium and within the context of our review could be:

  • The breeding of Pu239 with fast neutrons has huge problems, and it would be great if another nuclear fuel could be found.
  • Thorium breeding shows interesting potential if the remaining large number of problems can be mastered in the long term, but right now, we are still far away from this. The contamination with the strong neutron absorber Pa233 and the large radioactivity from U232 and other elements are chief among the currently unsolved problems.
  • The well known use of nuclear fission energy in PWR's is unsustainable. The problems related to long-lived transuranic elements, e.g. plutonium and heavier elements, as well as nuclear waste in general, are unsolved. The concern with nuclear weapon proliferation cannot be dismissed either.

5. Fusion Illusions

This section offers a short version of a detailed article by the author in the second edition of The Final Energy Crisis [31].

After the second world war, many nuclear pioneers expected that nuclear fusion would provide their grandchildren with cheap, clean, and essentially unlimited energy.

Generations of physicists and physics teachers have been taught at the university and have gone on to teach others that (i) progress made in fusion research is impressive, (ii) controlled fusion is probably only a few decades away, and (iii) given sufficient public funding, no major obstacles stand between us and success in this field.

Here are some quotes from physics textbooks that reflect this sort of optimism:

"The goal seems to be visible now" (Nuclear and Particle Physics; Frauenfelder and Henley 1974)

"It will most likely take until the year 2000 to bring a laboratory reactor to full commercial utiliza­tion" (Energy, Resources and Policy; R. Dorf 1978)

"As the construction of a fusion reactor implies a large number of unsolved practical problems, one cannot expect that fusion will become a usable energy resource during some decades! Within a longer time scale however it seems possible!" (Physics, P. A. Tipler 1991)

Obviously this has not happened yet. The fusion optimists have meanwhile become a bit more modest. One can now read: "If everything goes well, the first commercial fusion reactor prototype might be ready in 50 years from now."

Such statements only hide the fact that no concept has yet been developed for how to solve the remaining problems. The uncritical media of today reverberated enthusiastically the recent decision by "world's leaders" to provide the ten billion US Dollars needed to start the ITER fusion project [32]. During the past few years, one could read, for example [33]:

  • "If successful, ITER would provide mankind with an unlimited source of energy" (Novosti, November 15, 2005).
  • "Officials project that 10% to 20% of the world energy could come from fusion by the end of the century" (BBC News, May 24, 2006).
  • "If successful, it could provide a source of energy that is clean and limitless" and "ITER says, within 30 years, the electricity could be available on the grid!" (BBC News, November 21, 2006).

The public, worried about global warming and oil price explosions, seems to welcome the tacit message that "we -the fusion scientists, the engineers, and the politicians- do everything that needs to be done to bring fusion energy on-line, before fossil fuel supplies become an issue, and before global warming boils us all."

In the following, we challenge the assumption that the ITER project offers any solution to the energy problem, and we quantify the arguments of fusion skeptics.

We start our discussion with an overview of the remaining huge problems facing commercial fusion and offer a detailed description of why the imagined self-sufficient tritium breeding cycle cannot work. In fact, as we are about to see, enough knowledge has been accumulated on this subject to safely conclude that whatever might justify the 10 billion US Dollar ITER project, it is not energy research.

5.1. Remaining barriers to fusion energy

Producing electricity from controlled nuclear fusion would require overcoming at least four major ob­stacles. The removal of each obstacle would need major scientific breakthroughs before any reasonable expectation might be formed of building a commercial prototype fusion reactor. It should be alarming that at best only the problems concerning the plasma control, described in point one below, might be investigated within the scope of the ITER project. Where and how the others might be dealt with is anyone's guess.

These are the four barriers:

  1. Commercial energy production requires steady state fusion conditions for a deuterium-tritium plasma on a scale comparable to that of today's standard nuclear fission reactors with outputs of 1 GW (electric) and about 3 GW (thermal) power. The current ITER proposal foresees a thermal power of only 0.4 GW using a plasma volume of 840 m3 . Originally it was planned to build ITER with a plasma volume of 2000 m3 corresponding to a thermal fusion power of 1.5 GW, but the fusion community soon realized that the original ITER version would never receive the required funding. Thus a smaller, much less ambitious version of the ITER project was proposed and finally accepted in 2005.

    The 1 GW (el) fission reactors of today function essentially in a steady state operation at nominal power and with an availability time over an entire year of roughly 90%. The deuterium-tritium fusion experiments have so far achieved short pulses of fusion power of 15 MW (therm) for one second and 4 MW (therm) for 5 seconds, corresponding to a liberated thermal energy of 5 kWh [34]. The Q-value (produced energy over input energy) for these pulses was 0.65 and 0.2, respectively.

    If everything works according to the latest plans [35], it will be 2018 when the first plasma experiments can start with ITER. From there, it will take us to 2026, at least another eight years, before the first tritium experiments are tried. The original plans from 2005 are now, even before any serious construction has started, already delayed by four years. In other words, it will take at least 20 years from the agreement by the world's richest countries to construct ITER, before one can find out if the goals of ITER, a power output of 0.5 GW (therm) with a Q-value of up to 10 and for 400 seconds, are realistic. Compare that to the original ITER proposal, which was 1.5 GW (therm), with a Q-value between 10-15 and for about 10,000 seconds. ITER proponents explain that the achievement of this goal would already be an enormous success. But this goal, even if it can be achieved by 2026, pales in comparison with the requirements of steady-state operation, year after year, with only a few minor controlled interruptions.

    Previous deuterium-tritium experiments used only minor quantities of tritium, and yet lengthy interruptions between successive experiments were required, because the radiation from the tri­tium decay was so excessively high. In earlier fusion experiments, such as JET, the energy liberated in the short pulses came from burning (fusing) about 3 micrograms (3 × 10-6 grams) of tritium, starting from a total amount of 20 gr of tritium. This number should be compared with the few kilograms of tritium required to perform the experiments foreseen during the en­tire ITER lifetime and with the still greater quantities that would be required for a commercial fusion reactor. A 400 sec fusion pulse with a power of 0.5 GW corresponds to the burning of 0.035 gr (3.5 × 10-2 grams) of tritium, a very large number, when compared to 3 micrograms, but a tiny number when compared with the yearly burning of 55.6 kilograms of tritium in a commercial 1 GW (therm) fusion reactor.

    The achieved efficiency of the tritium burning (i.e., the amount that is burned divided by the total amount required to achieve the fusion pulse) was roughly 1 part in a million in the JET experiment and is expected to be about the same in the ITER experiments, far below any acceptable value, if one wants to burn 55.6 kg of tritium per year.

    Moreover in a steady-state operation, the deuterium-tritium plasma will be "contaminated" with the helium nucleus that is produced, and some instabilities can be expected. Thus a plasma cleaning routine is needed that would not cause noticeable interruptions of production in a commercial fusion plant. ITER proponents know that even their self-defined goal (a 400 second long deuterium-tritium fusion operation within the relatively small volume of 840 m3) presents a great challenge. One might wonder what they think about the difficulties involved in reaching steady-state operation for a full-scale fusion power plant.

  2. The material that surrounds and contains thousands of cubic meters of plasma in a full-scale fusion reactor has to satisfy two requirements. First, it has to survive an extremely high neutron flux with energies of 14 MeV, and second, it has to do this not for a few minutes but for many years. It has been estimated that in a full-scale fusion power plant the neutron flux will be at least 10-20 times larger than in today's state-of-the-art nuclear fission power plants. Since the neutron energy is also higher, it has been estimated that -with such a neutron flux- each atom in the solid surrounding the plasma will be displaced 475 times over a period of 5 years [36]. Second, to further complicate matters, the material in the so called first wall (FW) around the plasma will need to be very thin in order to minimize inelastic neutron collisions resulting in the loss of neutrons (for more details see next section), yet at the same time thick enough so that it can resist both the normal and the accidental collisions from the 100-million-degree hot plasma for years.

    The "erosion" from the neutron bombardment has been estimated to be about 3 mm per "burn" year for carbon-like materials, and it has been estimated to be about 0.1 mm per burn year even for materials like tungsten [36].

    In short, no material known today can even come close to meeting the requirements described above. Exactly how a material that meets these requirements could be designed and tested remains a mystery, because tests with such extreme neutron fluxes cannot be performed either at ITER or at any other existing or planned facility.

  3. The radioactive decay of even a few grams of tritium creates radiation dangerous to living organ­isms, such that those who work with it must take sophisticated protective measures. Moreover, tritium is chemically identical to ordinary hydrogen, and as such is very active and difficult to con­tain. Since tritium is also a necessary ingredient in hydrogen fusion bombs, there is additional risk that it might be stolen. So, handling even the few kg of tritium foreseen for ITER is likely to create major headaches both for the radiation protection group and for those concerned with the proliferation of nuclear weapons.

    Both of these challenges are essentially ignored in the ITER proposal, and the only thing the protection groups have to work with today are design studies based on computer simulations. This may not be of concern to the majority of ITER's promoters today, since they will be retiring before the tritium problem starts in something like 10 to 15 years from now [37], but at some point, it will become a greater challenge also for ITER and especially once one starts to work on a real fusion experiment with many tens of kilograms of tritium.

  4. Problems related to tritium supply and self-sufficient tritium breeding will be discussed in detail in Section 5.2, but first, it will be useful to describe qualitatively two problems that seem to require simultaneous miracles, if they are to be solved.
    • The neutrons produced in the fusion reaction will be emitted essentially isotropically in all directions around the fusion zone. These neutrons must somehow be convinced to escape without further interactions through the first wall surrounding the few 1000 m3 plasma zone. Next, the neutrons have to interact with a "neutron multiplier" material like beryllium in such a manner that the neutron flux is increased without transferring too much energy to the remaining nucleons. The neutrons then must transfer their energy without being absorbed (e.g. by elastic scattering) to some kind of gas or liquid, like high pressure helium gas, within the lithium blanket. This heated gas has to be collected somehow from the gigantic blanket volume and must flow to the outside. This heat can be used as in any existing power plant to power a generator turbine. This liquid should be as hot as possible, in order to achieve reasonable efficiency for electricity production. However, it is known that the lithium blanket temperature cannot be too high. This limits the efficiency to values well below those from today's nuclear fission reactors, which also do not have a very high efficiency.

      Once the heat is extracted and the neutrons are slowed sufficiently, they must make the inelastic interaction with the Li6 isotope, which makes up about 7.5% of the natural lithium. The minimal thickness of the lithium blanket that surrounds the entire plasma zone has been estimated to be at least 1 meter. Unfortunately, lithium like hydrogen (tritium atoms are chemically identical to hydrogen) in its pure form is chemically highly reactive. If used in a chemical bound state with oxygen, for example, the oxygen itself could interact and absorb neutrons, something that must be avoided. In addition, lithium and the produced tritium will react chemically -which is certainly not included in any present computer modeling- and some tritium atoms will be blocked within the blanket. Unfortunately, additional neutron and tritium losses cannot be allowed, as will be described in more detail in Section 5.2.

    • Next, an efficient way has to be found to extract the tritium quickly, and without loss, from this lithium blanket before it decays. We are talking about a huge blanket here, one that surrounds the few 1000 m3 plasma volume. Extracting and collecting the tritium from this huge lithium blanket will be very tricky indeed, since tritium penetrates thin walls relatively easily, and since accumulations of tritium are highly explosive. An interesting description of some of these difficulties that have already been encountered in a small-scale experiment can be found in reference [38].

      Finally assuming we get that far, the extracted and collected tritium and deuterium, which both need to be extremely clean, need to be transported, without losses, back to the reactor zone.

Each of the unsolved problems described above is by itself serious enough to raise doubts about the success of commercial fusion reactors. But the self-sufficient tritium breeding is especially problematic, as will be described in the next section.

5.2. The illusions of tritium self-sufficiency

A self-sustained tritium fusion chain appears to be not simply problematic but absolutely impossible. To see why, we shall now look into some details based on what is already known about this problem.

A central quantity for any fission reactor is its criticality, namely that exactly one neutron, out of the two to three neutrons "liberated" per fission reaction, will enable another nuclear fission reaction. More than 99% of the liberated fission energy is taken by the heavy fission products such as barium and krypton, and this energy is relatively easily transferred to a cooling medium. The energy of the produced fission neutrons is about 1 MeV. In order to achieve the criticality condition, the surrounding material must have a very low neutron absorption cross-section, and the neutrons must be slowed down to eV energies. For a self-sustained chain reaction to happen, a large amount of U235, enriched to 3-5%, is usually required. Once the nominal power is obtained, the chain reaction can be regulated using materials with a very high neutron absorption cross-section. A much higher enrichment of 20% is required for fast reactors without moderators and up to 90% for bombs.

In contrast to fission reactions, only one 14 MeV neutron is liberated in the D + T → He + n fusion reaction. This neutron energy has to be transferred to a medium using elastic collisions. Once this is done, the neutron is supposed to make an inelastic interaction with a lithium nucleus, splitting it into tritium and helium.

Starting with the above reaction, one can calculate how much tritium burning is required for a continuously operating commercial fusion reactor assuming a power production of 1 GW (thermal). One finds that about 55.6 kg of tritium needs to be burned per year with an average thermal power of 1 GW.

Today, tritium is extracted from Canadian heavy water reactors at extraordinary cost - about 30 million US Dollars per kg. These old heavy water reactors will probably stop operation around the year 2025, and it is expected that a total tritium inventory of 27 kg will have been accumulated by that year [39]. Once these reactors stop operating, this inventory will be depleted by more than 5% per year due to its radioactive decay alone - tritium has a half-life of 12.3 years. As a result, for the prototype "PROTO" fusion reactor, which fusion optimists imagine to start operation not before the year 2050, at best only 7 kg of tritium might remain for the start (Normal fission reactors produce at most 2-3 kg per year, and the extraction costs have been estimated to be 200 million dollars per kg [39].). It is thus obvious that any future fusion reactor experiment beyond ITER must not only achieve tritium self-sufficiency, it must create more tritium than it uses, if there are to be any further fusion projects.

The particularly informative website of Prof. Abdou from UCLA, one of the world's leading experts on tritium breeding, offers relevant numbers both about the basic requirements for tritium breeding and the state of the art today [40]. Yet, let us start with first things first, as understanding such "expert" discussions requires acquaintance with some key terms:

  • The required Tritium Breeding Ratio (rTBR) stands for the minimal number of tritium nuclei that must be produced per fusion reaction in order to keep the system going. It must be larger than one because of tritium decay and other losses and because of the necessary inventory in the tritium processing system and the stockpile for outages and for the startup of other plants. The rTBR value depends on many system and technology parameters.
  • The achievable Tritium Breeding Ratio (aTBR) is the value obtained from complicated and extensive computer simulations -so-called 3-dimensional simulations- of the blanket with its lithium and other materials. The aTBR value depends on many parameters like the first wall material and the incomplete coverage of the breeding blanket.
  • Other important variables are used to define quantitatively the value of the rTBR. These include: (1) the "tritium doubling time," the time in years required to double the original inventory; (2) the "fractional tritium burn-up" within the plasma, expected to be at best a few %; (3) the "reserve time," the tritium inventory required in days to restart the reactor after some system malfunctioning with a related tritium loss; and (4) the ratio between the calculated and the experimentally obtained TBR.

The handling of neutrons, tritium, and lithium requires particular care, not only because of radiation, but also because tritium and lithium atoms are chemically very reactive elements. Consequently, real-world large-scale experiments are difficult to perform, and our understanding of tritium breeding is based almost entirely on complicated and extensive computer simulations, which can only be done in a few places around the world.

Some of these results are described in a publication by Sawan and Abdou from December 2005 [41]. The authors assume that a commercial fusion power reactor of 1.5 GW (burning about 83 kg of tritium per year) would require a long-term inventory of 9 kg, and they further assume that the required start­up tritium is available.

They argue that, according to their calculations, the absolute minimum rTBR is 1.15, assuming a doubling time of more than 4 years, a fractional tritium burn-up larger than 5%, and a reserve time of less than 5 days. Requiring a shorter doubling time of 1 year, their calculations indicate that the rTBR should be around 1.5. More numbers can be read out from their figures. For example, one finds that if the fractional burn-up would be 1%, the rTBR should be 1.4 for a 5 year doubling time and even 2.6 for a 1 year doubling time. The fractional tritium burn-up during the short MW pulses in JET was roughly 0.0001%.

The importance of short tritium doubling times can be understood easily using the following calculation. Assuming these numbers can be achieved and that 27 kg tritium (2025) minus the 9 kg long-term inventory would be available at start-up, then 18 kg could be burned in the first year. A doubling time of 4 years would thus mean that such a commercial 1.5 GW (thermal) reactor can operate at full power only 8 years after the start-up.

Unfortunately, these rTBR estimates are far too optimistic as a number of potential losses related to the tritium extraction, collection, and transport are not considered in today's simulations.

The details become even more troubling when we turn to the tritium breeding numbers that have been obtained with computer simulations.

After many years of detailed studies, current simulations show that the blanket designs of today have, at best, achieved TBR's of 1.15. Using this number, Sawan and Abdou conclude that a small window for tritium self-sufficiency still exists theoretically. This window requires (1) a fractional tritium burn up of more than 5%, (2) a tritium reserve time of less than 5 days, and (3) a doubling time of more than 4 years. Yet even using these numbers, the authors believe it to be difficult to imagine a real operating power plant. In their own words: "for fusion to be a serious contender for energy production, shorter doubling times than 5 years are needed," and the fact is, doubling times much shorter than 5 years appear to be required, which means that TBR's much higher than 1.15 are necessary. To make matters worse, they also acknowledge that current systems of tritium handling need to be explored further. This probably means that the tritium extraction methods from nuclear fission reactors are nowhere near meeting the requirements.

Sawan and Abdou also summarize various effects that reduce the obtained aTBR numbers, once more realistic reactor designs are studied, and structural materials, gaps, and first wall thickness are considered. For example, they find that as the first wall, made of steel, is increased by 4 cm starting from a 0.4 cm wall, the aTBR drops by about 16%. It would be interesting to compare these assumptions about the first wall with the ones used in previous plasma physics experiments like JET and the one proposed for ITER. Unfortunately, we have so far not been able to obtain any corresponding detailed information. However, as it is expected that the first wall in a real fusion reactor will erode by up to a few mm per fusion year, the required thin walls seem to be one additional impossible assumption made by the fusion proponents.

Other effects, as described in detail by Sawan and Abdou [41], are known to reduce the aTBR even further. The most important ones come from the cooling material required to transport the heat away from the breeding zone, from the electric insulator material, from the incomplete angular coverage of the inner plasma zone with a volume of more than 1000 m3, and from the plasma control requirements.

This list of problems is already very long and shows that the belief in a self-sufficient tritium chain is completely unfounded. However, on top of that, some still very idealized TBR experiments have been performed now. These real experiments show, according to Sawan and Abdou [41], that the measured TBR results are consistently about 15% lower than the modeling predicts. They write in their publication: "the large overestimate (of the aTBR) from the calculation is alarming and implies that an intense R&D program is needed to validate and update .. our ability to accurately predict the achievable TBR."

One might conclude that a correct interpretation could have been:

Today's experiments show consistently that no window for a self-sufficient tritium breeding cur­rently exists and suggest that proposals that speak of future tritium breeding are based on nothing more than hopes, fantasies, misunderstandings, or even intentional misrepresentations.

5.3. Ending the dreams about controlled nuclear fusion

As we have explained above, there is a long list of fundamental problems concerning controlled fusion. Each of them appears to be large enough to raise serious doubts about the viability of the chosen approach to a commercial fusion reactor and thus about the 10 billion US Dollars ITER project.

Those not familiar with the handling of high neutron fluxes or the possible chemical reactions of tritium and lithium atoms might suppose that these problems are well known within the fusion community and are being studied intensively. But the truth is, none of these problems have been studied intensively and, at best, even with the ITER project, the only problems that might be studied relate to some of the plasma stability issues outlined in Section 5.1. All of the other problem areas are essentially ignored in today's discussions among ITER experts.

Confronted with the seemingly impossible tritium self-sufficiency problem that must be solved before a commercial fusion reactor is possible, the ITER experts tell you that this is not a problem that the current ITER project is to address. It won't be until the next generation of experiments -experiments that will not begin for roughly another 30 years according to official plans- that issues related to tritium self-sufficiency will have to be dealt with. They seem to also be comfortable with the fact that neither the problems related to material aging due to the high neutron flux nor the problems related to tritium and lithium handling can be tested with ITER.

However, among those who are not part of ITER and who do not expect miracles, an ever increasing number of scientists is coming to the conclusion that commercial fusion reactors can never become a reality. They are even starting to receive attention from the media as they argue ever more loudly that the ITER project will contribute very little, if anything, to energy research [42].

One scientist who should be listened to more widely is Prof. Abdou. In a pre­sentation in 2003 that was prepared on behalf of the US fusion chamber technology community for the US Department of Energy (DOE) Office of Science on Fusion Chamber Technology, he wrote that "tritium supply and self-sufficiency are a 'Go-No Go' issue for fusion energy, [and are therefore] as critical NOW as demonstrating a burning plasma" [capitalization in original]. He pointed out that "there is NOT a single experiment yet in the fusion environment that shows that the DT fusion fuel cycle is viable." He said that "proceeding with ITER makes Chamber Research even more critical" and he asked: "What should we do to communicate this message to those who influence fusion policy outside DOE?" [43]. In short, to go ahead with ITER without addressing these chamber technology issues makes very little sense economically.

In the light of everything that has been said in this section, it seems clear that the nuclear fusion scientists should be telling the truth to the tax payers, the policy makers, and the media. They should tell them that, after 50 years of very costly fusion research conducted at various locations around the world, enough knowledge exists to state that:

  1. today's achievements in all relevant areas of nuclear fusion are still many orders of magnitude away from the basic requirements of a fusion prototype reactor;
  2. no material or structure is known that can withstand the extremely high neutron flux expected under realistic deuterium-tritium fusion conditions; and
  3. self-sufficient tritium breeding appears to be impossible to achieve under the conditions required to operate a commercial fusion reactor.

It is late, but perhaps not too late, to acknowledge that the ITER project is at this point nothing more than an expensive experiment to investigate some fundamental aspects of plasma physics. Since this would in effect acknowledge that the current ITER funding process is based on faulty assumptions and that ITER should in all fairness be funded on equal terms with all other basic research projects, acknowledging these truths will not be easy. Yet, it is the only honest thing to do.

It is also the only path that will allow us to transfer from ITER to other more promising research efforts the enormous resources and the highly skilled talents that need now to be brought to bear on our increasingly urgent energy problems. In short, this is the only path that will allow us to stop "throwing good money after bad" and to start dealing with our emerging energy crisis in a realistic way.

6. Summary

In this fourth and final part of our analysis about the Future of Nuclear Energy, we have presented status and prospects for nuclear fuel breeder fission reactors and the true situation as it relates to nuclear fusion.

Despite the often repeated claims that the technology for fast reactors is well understood, one finds that no evidence exists to back up such claims. In fact, their huge construction costs, their poor safety records, and their inefficient performance give little reason to believe that they will ever become commercially significant.

Indeed, no evidence has been presented so far that the original goal of nuclear fuel breeding has been achieved. The designs and running plans for the two FBR's, currently under construction in India and in Russia, do not indicate that successful breeding can even in principle be achieved.

Nevertheless, assuming that extensive and costly efforts are being undertaken during the next 20-30 years, a remote possibility of mastering nuclear fission breeder reactor technology can still be imagined. However, it is unclear if (1) enough highly enriched uranium remains to start future commercial breeder reactors on a large scale in 30-40 years from now, and (2) if the people in rich societies will accept risky and costly research efforts during times of economic difficulties. In any case, fast breeder reactors, even under the most optimistic assumptions, will come far too late to compensate for the looming energy decline following the peaking of oil and gas.

In contrast to the remaining open questions relating to fission breeders, we find that the accumulated knowl­edge about nuclear fusion is already now large enough to conclude that commercial fusion power is not only 50 years away, but that it will always be 50 years away.

The current situation concerning the future of nuclear energy appears in many respects similar to the one described in a famous fairy tale [44], but with a slightly modified ending:

"In the coming 'autumn and winter' of our industrial civilization brought on by the decline of fossil fuels, it seems clear that the clothes of the Nuclear Fission Energy emperor are far too thin to keep him and others warm, and that the Nuclear Fusion Emperor has no clothes at all!"

Acknowledgments

This report about the Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fic­tion, and especially its fourth part, is a result of many questions that the author asked scientists active within the fission and fusion research communities over the past few years. Essentially, none was answered and no help was provided to get in contact with the corresponding "fission" and "fusion" experts. Thus in some kind of "hobby" research, which included dis­cussions with friends, colleagues, and many believers in never ending technological progress, the different pieces concerning the future of nuclear energy summarized in this report came together.

During early 2007, an attempt was made to discuss the fusion problems in an open and scientific way directly with scientists from the fusion community. After coming as far as fixing the date for a seminar, the author received an email stating that there had been a "misunderstanding," and the envisaged dialog never took place. A similar initiative to discuss open issues about nuclear fission energy was undertaken in 2008. Again, it came as far as a seminar invitation that was canceled when trying to fix a date.

However during the spring of 2007, the author received an invitation to present the "Status and Prospects of Nuclear Energy" at the 6th ASPO meeting in Cork, Ireland in September 2007. In preparation for this presentation, the author took the time to study the 2005 edition of the Red Book in detail. Many questions about the uranium resource numbers, presented in the Red Book, came up, but the inconsistencies were not yet large enough to start doubting the data. This view changed however, when the 2007 edition appeared together with an enthusiastic press declaration in June 2008. As it turned out from comparing the 2007 and 2005 editions, the reported uranium resource data were nothing but a collection of proven and unproven geological data mixed with politically correct wishful thinking about a sustainable and bright future for the peaceful use of nuclear energy. This is how this report with its first three parts concerning the Red Book and the analysis of future nuclear energy technologies started to take shape.

Even though the views expressed in this paper are from the author alone, I would like to thank several colleagues and friends who took the trouble to discuss the content of this report during the past few years with me. They all helped me to bring it into its final form. I would like to thank especially D. Hatzifotiadou, W. Tamblyn, and F. Spano for many valuable suggestions and the careful reading of the paper draft. I would also like to thank S. Newman, who had asked me during the spring of 2007 to prepare a chapter about "Fusion Illusions" for the second edition of the book "The Final Energy Crisis." Her encouragement was essential to writing the longer report about nuclear fusion energy.

Finally, after several attempts to complete also the report about the Red Book and the status and prospects of nuclear fission energy, it was Prof. F. Cellier who suggested to split this report into four separate parts and submit it to the Oil Drum for publication. I am very grateful to him about the many valuable discussions we had, for the encouragement to complete this report, and for his editing work to transform the article into the style needed for the Oil Drum publication. I am also grateful to the staff of the Oil Drum for having created a place where such articles, often censored in other places, can be published and confronted directly to the comments of a large number of critical readers.

Thus, the author hopes, with the ideas expressed in the quote from Gustave Le Bon below, that this report will function like some kind of "telescope," helping others to observe that some objects are moving around Jupiter.

"Science promised us truth, or at least a knowledge of such relations as our intelligence can seize: it never promised us peace or happiness"
Gustave Le Bon

References

[1] For a historic overview, cf. http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/cp-1_critical.htm.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power.

[3] For the fraction of nuclear electric energy production in 2007, cf. page 17 of http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/2009/key_stats_2009.pdf.

[4] Cf. for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_breeder_reactor; http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nucene/fasbre.html; and under the sub­title "Is nuclear energy renewable?" in http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf09.html.

[5] "All agree, however, that successful completion of this research could pro­vide humans with perhaps the 'final solution' to their energy needs." in http://www.bookrags.com/research/nuclear-fusion-enve-02/ or "The final solution of energy problems seems to be achieved only by the realization of nuclear fusion." from the abstract in http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=5915187.

[6] Parts I, II, and III of this four-part article have been published at the Oil Drum, August/September 2009 at http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5631, http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5677, and http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/5744, respec­tively. The articles are also available at the preprint archive http://xxx.lanl.gov/ filed under Physics and Society at http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0908.0627, http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0908.3075, and http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/0909.1421, respectively.

[7] The IAEA data base about existing nuclear reactors can be accessed at http://www.iaea.org/programmes/a2/. A qualitative overview of different FBR's is pre­sented at http://www.eoearth.org/article/Fast_neutron_reactors_(FBR).

[8] The WNA document about Russia, http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf45.html, men­tions the year 2010 as BN-600 termination date.

[9] The IAEA fast reactor data base with many detailed publications can be accessed at http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/frdb/index.html. The BN-600 design breeding gain of -0.15 is mentioned in [22], page 46.

[10] The actual status of the Phenix reactor is described in the WNA document about FBR's: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf98.html.

[11] For a list of previously scheduled Monju restarts, cf. http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/stdsearch.aspx?sparam=monju&fid=778.

[12] The WNA document about India, http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf53.html, mentions 2010 as the FBR startup date, with commercial power production starting in 2011.

[13] For some information about running experience with thorium reactors, cf. the WNA doc­ument http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html.

[14] According to a Wikipedia article, the power density in the sun is estimated at 0.272 W/m3 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun. At other places, such as Klaus Heinloth, Die Energiefrage (2003), a roughly 1000 times larger fusion power density is given.

[15] The text of the NPT is reproduced at http://www.un.org/events/npt2005/npttreaty.html. Especially, articles IV and VI have important implications for today’s discussions about Iran and other states.

[16] A three minute documentation about the explosion of the Tsar bomb can be found at you-tube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2nQopP73XI&feature=player_embedded.

[17] Many interesting scenes from the "Dr. Strangelove" movie can be found at you-tube. For example, the ones from ending http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iesXUFOlWC0&feature=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrWz9XVvls are very revealing.

[18] For some details about the relations between radiation and cancer, cf. http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ped/content/ped_1_3x_radiation_exposure_and_cancer.asp.

[19] The formula is in chapter 4, page 106 of the book Nuclear Engineering: Theory and Technology of Commercial Nuclear Power by Ronald Allen Knief, New York: Hemisphere Pub. Corp., 1992. Many more interesting aspects about energy from nuclear fission are explained in this book.

[20] Details about the thorium breeding experiments with the Shippingport reac­tor are given in http://www.inl.gov/technicalpublications/Documents/2664750.pdf and http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/769053-hlSCmO/native/769053.pdf.

[21] The breeding ratio of 1.14 for the Phenix FBR is given in many papers and textbooks. However according to the [22] document, this value is the design value, and not the result of an experimental analysis.

[22] The fuel content of the FBR core and other pieces of information are taken from the IAEA document http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/frdb/fulltext/03_coreCharacteristics.pdf#37.

[23] For the WNA quote about the BN-800 FBR, cf. http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/inf98.html, and for some interesting details about the timescale of the nuclear energy evolution in Russia, cf. the WNA document http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/inf45.html.

[24] Details about the Generation IV International Forum (GIF) can be found at their website http://www.gen-4.org/. The detailed roadmap program is presented at http://www.gen-­4.org/Technology/roadmap.htm.

[25] The statements from the WNA can be found at http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/inf77.html.

[26] The statement by Bernard Bigot, chairman of the French Atomic Energy Com­mission, made at the September Global 2009 "The Nuclear Fuel Cycle" conference is re­peated at the website of the supporters of nuclear energy http://www.sone.org.uk/ at http://www.sone.org.uk/content/view/1349/2/.

[27] Information about the Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP) can be obtained from their website http://www.gneppartnership.org/index.htm.

[28] The June 29, 2009 news item from the WNA entitled "Fatal Blow to GNEP?" can be found at http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NP-DoE_cancels_GNEP_EIS-2906095.html.

[29] Many discussion topics, research articles, and discussions about the use of thorium can be found at the http://www.energyfromthorium.com/ website.

[30] The pragmatic down-to-earth statement about future thorium breeders comes from the WNA article about "thorium" in http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.html.

[31] The original article "Fusion Illusions" is published in the second edition of the The Final Energy Crisis edited by S. Newman. For more details and many other articles about the coming energy crisis, cf. http://candobetter.org/TFEC/.

[32] For the ITER homepage and further details, cf. http://www.iter.org/default.aspx. More technical details about the ITER status can be found at the website of the USA fusion community at http://fire.pppl.gov/.

[33] Cf. for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6165932.stm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5012638.stm.

[34] Cf. for example John Wesson, The Science of JET, Chapter 1and Appendix I, March 2000 at http://www.jet.efda.org/documents/books/wesson.pdf for the timeline of the JET experiments.

[35] The new, four-year-delayed date for the first deuterium-tritium experiments in 2026 has been announced at the 4th ITER Council meeting in June 2009, as described at http://www.iter.org/proj/Pages/ITERMilestones.aspx. However, it seems that nothing goes as planned. According to an article in Nature, October 13, 2009, ITER has been at a standstill since April, http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091013/full/461855a.html.

[36] For more details, cf. the presentations by B. D. Wirth at http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/courses/classes/NE39/Wirth-FusionMaterials_lecture2.pdf and
S. J. Zinkle (2004), page 47 at http://fire.pppl.gov/aps_dpp04_zinkle.pdf.

[37] The ITER people seem to be working on a new quantitative construction and operation timeline, as details are currently not available on the ITER homepage. However a qualitative overview can be be found at http://www.iter.org/PROJ/Pages/ITERAndBeyond.aspx. The original 50 year timeline towards the realization of the DEMO and PROTO fusion devices is described at http://www.fusion.org.uk/culham/fasttrack.pdf.

[38] J. L. Anderson, Tritium Systems: Issues and Answers, Journal of Fusion Energy, Vol 4, Nos. 2/3, 1985 and http://www.springerlink.com/content/m34445687252l544/.

[39] Cf. for example M. Abdou, Notes for Informal Discussion with Senior Fusion Leaders in Japan (JAERI and Japanese Universities), March 24, 2003.

[40] The website of Prof. M. Abdou, http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/abdou/.

[41] M. E. Sawan and M. A. Abdou, Physics and technology conditions for attaining tritium self-sufficiency for the DT fuel cycle, Fusion Engineering and Design, 81 (2006) 1131-44 and http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fusengdes.2005.07.035.

[42] Cf. for example S. Balibar, Y. Pomeau and J. Treiner, La France et l'énergie des étoiles, point de vue, Le Monde, 24 October 2004, and W. E. Parkins, Fusion Power: Will It Ever Come, March 10 Science Vol 311.

[43] M. Abdou, Briefing to DOE Office of Science, Washington June 3, 2003 at http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/abdou/abdou presentations/2003/orbach pres (6-1-03) Final1.ppt.

[44] It seems that "history" sometimes repeats itself. Hans Christian Andersen (1837) fairy tale, "The Emperor’s New Suit," can be found at http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html.

A good summary of what's wrong with most of the nuclear programs but
you've left off a most promising technology; the US NIF fusion LIFE reactor being worked on at LLNL. Hybrid reactors were originally proposed by Hans Bethe.

I submitted an article on it here a while back at TOD but the editors must have lost it.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/energy_for_the_future/life/how_li...

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/energy_for_the_future/

https://lasers.llnl.gov/programs/nic/icf/

I think this could work. Small targets of deuterium/tritium are fused with high powered lasers to provide a controllable neutron source which could breed depleted uranium, actinides or thorium into fissionable fuel which would slowly burn down.
There is NO fuel problem and (almost) no waste with these reactors and they operate at slightly higher temperatures than normal LWRs so the efficiency is higher.

The US government is very quiet about this unique program which had 'non-technical' problems in the past. I'm sure they don't want to jinx this one.

As to ITER, there are lots of smart people working on it and lots of money committed to it so I think it probably will work --after NIF succeeds ;-)

Nevertheless fusion is a ways off and we need to deal with Peak Oil and GW so I'm content to let fusion science proceed at its own pace.

A watched kettle never boils!

The Polywell reactors are also kind of interesting. The idea of using a boron target (pB11 reaction) seems very attractive, as it results in no radioactive waste! Apparently those guys just got some money from the stimulus funds. We'll have to wait and see. Or we can join them, I guess...

As for ITER, I think it was the late Prof. Bussard (of Polywell fame) who said that the Russians gave us the idea of the tokamak so that we would never figure out commercial fusion power! The whole thing has been going on for so long and is so freakin' enormous by now that it really reeks of boondoggle. The technical challenges there are still considerable, and I think the current iteration of the project will be its last (much like the LHC will probably be the last collider of its type ever built).

It seems that the LLNL National Ignition Facility concept is rather unlikely to result in NET energy. They quote a 100:1 energy conversion (laser photons to thermal); now slap on the thermal efficiency for electricity production and the huge overhead of maintaining so many high-powered pulsed lasers. At any rate, they seem more interested in studying the details of the tritium reaction for further weapons development, which is the whole deal at LLNL.

I tend to concur with Dr. Dittmar; I think the whole commercial electricity-from-nuclear idea is flawed and should be altogether abandoned. There are good reasons that governments still have to finance and operate these things: because they're not profitable! Using Jeff Vail's EROEI analysis, we can conclude that they are probably not "energy positive" (a loaded term, but one we must live with). Their sheer complexity is a good indication that we're not going to be able to rely on them for primary energy for much longer; attempting to make them even more complex in the ways described in the article is surely a detour we cannot afford at this late stage in the game. I hold out some hope for the Polywell approach, because it's cheap and simple and with pB11, safe. But it's still in its infancy.

That said, I think uranium may be a fantastic fuel for space travel and other applications where very high density fuel is needed; but we should leave SOMETHING for future generations to play with, don't you think?! Haven't we already done enough?! We need to focus right now on getting back safely on the ground.

Like many here, I'm generally a pessimist when it comes to our future energy prospects. Inertial-electrostatic fusion, especially polywell is probably the greatest ray of hope. I am amazed at the low profile that polywell research has. It has to be the most promising avenue of fusion research at the moment. I guess governments are either unwilling to admit the billions spent on tokomaks has been flushed, or they are owned by the oil business and want fusion research to fail.

EMC2 - The late Professor Bussard's company has proposed that it would cost somewhere around $200M to build a 100MW net energy producing pB11 polywell reactor. Compare this with the cost of ITER...

As an aside, probably the best part of the pB11 reaction is that it's released energy is almost entirely contained in three alphas. The energy can be recovered directly as electricity - no steam cycle, potentially allowing very high conversion efficiency. This is why the US Navy has been funding research (albeit at depressingly low levels) - if it can be made to work, it's perfect for ship-board power.

As an aside, probably the best part of the pB11 reaction is that it's released energy is almost entirely contained in three alphas. The energy can be recovered directly as electricity - no steam cycle, potentially allowing very high conversion efficiency.

Yeah, I've heard that, but I haven't seen any detailed explanation. The other big plus is that it could potentially eliminate the overhead of all those turbines (so long as the capture mechanism isn't even more complicated; but I imagine it wouldn't have any moving parts). If you care to expand or have a link or something, I'd love to learn more. Thanks.

A bunch of papers on the subject can be found Here.

The basic theory is a series of positively charged electrodes decelerate the positively charged ions, which strip further electrons from the electrodes, imparting additional charge to them. No moving parts (apart from the He ions).

I've been perplexed by the Polywell/Bussard proposals. Clearly if you can create/maintain a concentrated negative charge, you should be able to attract positively charged nuclei at sufficient energy to do the job. But, I can't imagine how you keep the negative charge contained. Presumably theres some sort of clever trick that I simply can't imagine.

The electrons are confined by a magnetic field. Since they are many orders of magnitude lighter than the positive ions, they respond strongly to a magnetic field that barely deflects the protons/deuterons/B11 ions. The prototype polywell units (WB-6/7) are said to use a field around the 1 to 2 tesla range, similar to an MRI scanner.

It's definitely a big problem with NIF to maintain those high powered lasers. Check the firing rate on them too: once every few hours. The next generation Mercury system is supposed to be better.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/programs/psa/fusion_energy/mercury.php

As currently designed, NIF's 192 beams can fire simultaneously only once every few hours. After each shot, the thousands of optics must be given a chance to cool down to ensure that they can operate correctly for the next shot.

yeah -maybe in five or ten years the lasers can be made to fire on a fairly regular basis.Then we can move on to another problem-building one that can be fitted into the reactor that is in and of itself not the size of a battleship.

Then we can tackle the next problem in sequence-ther probably aren't over a hundred or so that will take a few years each to solve -if they CAN be solved.

Concerning the Laser or accelerator made neutrons

so far it is always an incredible small number for the ``energy return/ energy invested"
and absolute numbers are so far below any commercial requirement that even a good solar panel makes more energy
at the end. Just think about the numbers a typical beam in an accelerator contains perhaps 10**11 to 10**12 protons
Thus to be generous 10**11 * 450* 10**9 eV (= 450 * 10**20 * 1.6 *10**-19 joule ) beam energy perhaps.
Thus roughly 10000 Joule within the beam. To make such a beam it requires a power of ten to hundred MWatt (If I remember correctly
we have a demand of up to 200 Mwatt!)

The efficiency on how the input electric energy is transformed is just tiny!
for more and future projects (compare what has been achieved and what is a far away goal!) have a look for example at
http://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/1065364/files/ab-note-2007-035.pdf?version=3

concerning the LASER power links you propose
just read through the challenges and compare with the propaganda statements from the page you have linked

https://lasers.llnl.gov/about/missions/energy_for_the_future/life/benefi...

you write:

As to ITER, there are lots of smart people working (1) on it and lots of money committed (2) to it so I think it probably will work (3)

what is the evidence for (1) when you look at the ITER website?

for the money (2) well have you never heard of projects getting lots of money and nothing ever came out of it?

for (3) what will work about ITER (try to figure out what the goal is and compare it to the remaining barriers listed in my paper!)
and what would it mean for commercial fusion energy?

Actually I suggest that you really read what I wrote in the section "Fusion Illusions" and
take a careful look at the references I provide.

michael

A hybrid LIFE reactor with a subcritical fission blanket is expected to have energy gains('EROI') of 120-200.

As a 'pure' fusion inertial reactor the gains from the laser are a more modest with 3 MJ of laser energy producing 200 MJ of thermonuclear energy.
The addition of a subcritical blanket increases that yield by 2.5 times.
OTH, the reactor would still operate as a heat engine and would require tremendous amounts of cooling compared to renewables like wind or solar.

It seems unlikely to me that LNLL's claims for the NIF are nonsense but it is certainly speculative at least until NIF is tested in 2010-2011 so caution is warranted.

Here's a possible deployment scheme for LIFE reactors as LWRs are phased out. It is based on building 5 to 12 commercial LIFE reactors by 2030 and a pilot plant in 2020.

The LLNL project is not nonsense; but it's not intended as a project to build a commercial fusion reactor. It's a weapons testing system (LLNL is a weapons lab); it's presented to the public as having to do with saving the planet, but I think the end goal is quite the opposite.

and absolute numbers are so far below any commercial requirement that even a good solar panel makes more energy
at the end.

Thats why they can only be used with a subcritical fuel assembly. If each fission can spanw say .99 further fissions (1.0 would be critical) then each absorbed neutron would generate a hundred fissions. So most of the neutron induced fissions are indirectly created by other fissions, only the individual fision changes are seeded by the neutron source.

Now you may still be right about the prospects. I haven't seen any details. Without an extremely efficient accelerator you clearly need fuel that is only slightly subcritical.

Concerning the Laser or accelerator made neutrons

so far it is always an incredible small number for the ``energy return/ energy invested"
and absolute numbers are so far below any commercial requirement that even a good solar panel makes more energy
at the end. Just think about the numbers a typical beam in an accelerator contains perhaps 10**11 to 10**12 protons
Thus to be generous 10**11 * 450* 10**9 eV (= 450 * 10**20 * 1.6 *10**-19 joule ) beam energy perhaps.
Thus roughly 10000 Joule within the beam. To make such a beam it requires a power of ten to hundred MWatt (If I remember correctly
we have a demand of up to 200 Mwatt!)

The LANL-ATP produces 100mA(6E17 protons per sec) 1700Mev beam at 170 MW,
(1.6E-19 Ws/Ev x 6E17p/s x 1.7E9Ev = 163 MW)so a 10E20 protons per second at 14Mev is just slightly more energy, 1.6E-19 x 10E19 x 14E6 = 224 MW.

That's a lot of energy but according to the site the fusion reactor would produce 500 MW of thermonuclear energy but as a hybrid fission reactor, you get 2500 MW of thermal energy out or as a +40% efficient heat engine(due to higher reactor temperature) you could produce 1000 MW of electricity out; 224 MWe in and 1000 MWe out--EROI of 4.5.

It's not terrific but no worse than present day nukes EROI.
http://www.eroei.com/eroei/evaluations/net-energy-list/

As far as ITER, site work has already started and in about 10 years 500 MW Cadarache should be in trials with an EROI electricity of less than 3.5, Q>=10. They say the reason ITER will work is the tokomakh chamber is larger than JET's.

The world production of tritium is 4 kg/yr which with an equal amount of deuterium could produce 30 Twh of thermal energy = 19 million barrels of oil. So I agree to a point with your tritium shortage argument and you can't stockpile it because it has a half-life of 12 years.(Tritium is made from lithium). Still NIF-LIFE would use much less than ITER.

http://www.iop.org/activity/policy/Events/Lectures/file_30844.pdf

All this is based on current state of technology and it should improve as these projects develop.

I read you section on tritium but the hybrid system gets 80% of its power from depleted uranium and thorium so much less tritum would be required--only enough to generate neutron flux.

You're just TOO negative on hybrid fusion,
but I agree even NIF-LIFE reactors will
be less magical than I should like.

It could turn out that solar and wind with suitable cheap mega-battery technology will be more efficient than LIFE (but not at present).

JMHO

What, majorian found a techno-hack that he likes?!  I am without words.

And I started to miss you

michael
(ps ``without words.." I hope not!)

On a similar vein there are proposals for using small efficient accelerators to provide a controllable neutron source for subcritical reactors. These could also (I think) could be used for Thorium fission. The advantages of these sorts of reactors are twofold. First being subcritical the reaction is dependent upon the neutron source. Shut off the accererator and the reaction shuts down. Secondly the need for high neutron yield per fission is relaxed, allowing a wider selection of fuel.

And in the fusion arena, I think the chance of ITER leading to practical fusion is almost zero. There are a couple of private efforts that are exploring some potentially interesting alternate methods. These are recieving about a thousandth of the finances of ITER. The big problem with the government funded programs, is that the big Tokamac labs, always had undue political power. Whenever an alternative concept started to look threatening that program would recieve the coup-de-gra. There was no way these folks were going to share the limited R&D budget with other labs!

Molten Salt Reactors (MSRs) have similar properties.  The fuel can be held in the vessel using "freeze plugs", actively cooled to prevent fluid from going through them; if the reactor overheats and overwhelms the cooling system or the cooling system is shut off, the frozen zone melts and the reactor drains passively to dump tanks.  Also, the operating temperature is regulated by controlling the concentration of fissionables.  As the fluid heats up, the fluid density falls and the neutron leakage increases.  This puts a ceiling on the continuous operating temperature of the reactor, as the chain reaction cannot be sustained below a critical fluid density.

There is a further advantage of dispensing with all the fusion hardware.  It's doubtful that fusion/fission can be justified on the basis of cost, given that fission can do the same job with mostly passive hardware and 1960's technology.

Even Gould had to back away from the moon after Apollo 11. Some semblence of reality needs to take hold some time, even in the comics.

You do seem to agree with one of the author's conclusions: that fusion work should compete on a level playing field with other experimental projects. Any suggestions as to how we get the funding to better short and medium term prospects? From what I am reading here the author's approach of lumping fusion with fast breeders may be counter productive.

I think he lumped 20-years-from-pilot fusion technology in with 40-years-since-demonstration fission technology to discredit the latter.  He uses a lot of sleight of hand, non-sequiturs and other misdirection to arrive at conclusions not supported by the data, even his cherry-picked data.

regarding the breeding of Plutonium, I can find the following article :
at osti database

where the abstract says (emphasis mine) :
"The feasibility of breeding has been demonstrated in the Phenix reactor with a measured gain of 0.14"

One paper doesn't mean that it becomes an universal proof, but saying "The theoretical hopes for fuel breeding are thus not backed up with hard experimental data." is probably a bit harsh. Nuclear Science and Engineering is the research Journal of the ANS and is a serious publication. You may be right, but the burden of proof falls on you.

For the last 20 years, research on fast reactors has focused on nuclear waste (including plutonium) burning/transmutation. It is reasonable to assume that it is the case because the breeding problem is considered solved, whereas the optimal waste management problem is still open. Regarding the latter, I don't see how it is possible to burn minor actinides with thermal reactors, so at least a few fast reactors will be necessary, but we have time to develop them.

Hi,

sorry but the link you give does not work(for me?)

but again as I wrote the number of 0.14 is copy paste from the design value.
I would be surprised if after so many years all over sudden this number
which was always mentioned will be justified from a detailed analysis of the fuel rods.

like it has been done with the Shippingport reactor!

you say:

For the last 20 years, research on fast reactors has focused on nuclear waste (including plutonium) burning/transmutation.
It is reasonable to assume that it is the case because the breeding problem is considered solved,

how do you backup these statements?

In contrary the Generation IV roadmap (written by all the relevant insiders) claims essentially the opposite!

michael

Here is the link that works. link

Since 91, there is a programme called SPIN ("separation et incineration en reacteur") in which Phenix was involved as it was the most intense source of neutrons for the CEA. The goal is to burn plutonium and minor actinides.

Hi,

unfortunately one only gets the abstract
if you have the full article i would be grateful if you can mail it to me!

otherwise it is remarkable that this article
is from

1985 Aug 01

thus at best the input "information" is from 1984 and roughly 26 year old
(the reactor started operation in 1974!)

as nothing detailed about the real breeding from Phenix is written in the
most recent up-to-date IAEA fast reactor data base it
the chances that a detailed fuel rod analysis like in the Shippingport Thorium case has been done
is highly unlikely!

michael

ps..
if the goal of a fast breeder is to produce fast neutrons
it should from now on be called Fast reactor
like the russian one(s).

And in agreement with what I wrote
there is no evidence that breeders work!

Hi,

Apologies I can only get to the abstract too.

It seems quite natural that the first thing experimenters checked after starting the reactor was the actual breeding ratio. Once it was done, it was done. No need to check it again and again ! So the fact that the article is old is not a reason to dismiss it. I am also not surprised to not read many details about what happened to the blanket rods. After all, this is a plutonium producing machine, you can't expect to have the detailed plan and operating procedures completely revealed to the public (especially at the end of the seventies, it was still the cold war at that time !).

On a more technical standpoint, the fact that breeding worked for a thorium/U233 thermal reactor is quite auspicious for breeding Pu in a fast reactor. It was not obvious that, with maximum η so close to 2, the neutron losses due to reactor geometry and the absorption of neutron by the moderator would not prevent breeding.
However, in a fast reactor, you have much less moderator losses (you still have a bit because the fuel is not in pure form but in the form of Oxide or Carbide ; for instance the breeding ratio with Carbide fuel has been computed to be 1.42). I doubt the reactor designers miscalculated for decades what the neutron flux was in the reactor. So the generated neutrons should exist and have to go somewhere, and this somewhere is the blanket. Again, there is no big uncertainty on the absorption cross section of the fertile material. The real question becomes, why wouldn't it work ?

My problem with this affirmation that breeders don't work is that you put it at the same level of certainty than your affirmations that Uranium resources are more limited than most people think and Tokamak fusion is doomed to fail. On the two later subjects, it is not difficult to find geologists agreeing with the first, and plasma physicists agreeing with the last. However, I can't find any other reference to a nuclear engineer (say, a neutronics specialist) doubting the feasibility of breeding in a fast reactor. Add to that independent teams in US (EBR-II), France (Phenix) and Russia (BN-800), all hiding breeding failures, and to top it all, the Chinese recently buying two BN-800 to the Russians to check by themselves that breeding really fails (buying just one would leave a doubt I guess). Sorry, it is too much of a conspiracy theory to me.

It is a pity because it weakens a well documented and structured paper overall.

Dittmar is only interested in pronouncing nuclear energy to be a failure (with the possible exception of MSRs).  He looks at the final light-water breeder test run of Shippingport (section 3.1), with its confirmed breeding ratio of 1.013 (despite issues with neutron capture in Pa-233), and pronounces it a failure.  He also claims "the initial concentration of fissile material in a reactor with only 0.237 GW (therm) energy was very large", when the initial fissile loading was only 501 kg or 1.17% of the total core*.  Fissionable loadings of current PWR cores are upwards of 4% of much larger total amounts†.

While he is claiming that nuclear energy is impossible, other people are doing it.  Lightbridge is commercializing thorium-uranium fuel, and claims to be working on disposal of reclaimed PWR plutonium.  That plutonium would suffice as the initial loading of fissionables in a reactor, thus requiring no uranium at all.  Spent LWR fuel is approximately 0.8% plutonium (depending on burnup), so 1.5 core's worth of spent uranium fuel would supply enough plutonium for a 1.2% loading of Pu for a new Th-Pu core.  Such a core would breed enough U-233 to maintain power output for years, without the refueling downtime required at 18-month intervals for LEU cores.  The increased uptime would increase capacity factor and net generation even if nameplate capacity was unchanged.

Nuclear weapons appear to be Dittmar's bogeyman.  He is terribly worried about the plutonium in PWR fuel, regardless of the fact that no weapons program has ever used reactor-grade Pu (too much heat from Pu-238 and too many spontaneous fissions from Pu-240 and Pu-241).  Chinese bomb designs supplied by N. Korea will not be suitable for reactor-grade Pu, so would-be proliferators have a much higher hurdle to jump; it should be no wonder that they are ignoring plutonium and going to centrifuge-enriched uranium.  This implies that the only serious proliferation issues are research reactors and the nuclear fuel cycle, not nuclear power per se (and especially not PWRs with their long downtime required to change fuel elements).  His neuroticism on this should be taken into account when appraising his conclusions.

* Dittmar sprinkles non-sequiturs and falsehoods throughout the series.  Claiming a large loading of fissionables for Shippingport (it was at the very low end of LWR fuel loadings) is simply false.  Whether he believes what he writes or not, you shouldn't; he is putting himself forth as an authority when he has none, and should have been laughed off TOD after Chapter I.
† The fuel burnup level is interesting.  The 43-odd tons of Th/U-233 in the final Shippingport core ran for 5 years at something like 2/3 capacity factor; call it 1200 full-power days.  This burnup corresponds to ~6500 MW-d/ton, or roughly what a CANDU achieves with natural uranium fuel.  However, in this process a CANDU burns its fuel from 0.71% U-235 to around 0.2%; Shippingport INCREASED its load of U-233 by about 1%.  If the breeding ratio can be sustained at higher power levels (higher neutron flux leading to greater losses from neutron capture in Pa-233), a thorium core could run for a very long time before needing replacement.

Dear EP
not yet without words! fine would be too much!

Thanks for your nice words and not taking the time to read what I wrote
or only in a very superficial way.

Yes, it is true I am worried a lot about nuclear weapons like many others.

If you are not fine with me. So why do you argue that your "favorite design" (what is it by the way and why is nobody influential
bothering to construct your wonder reactors) has no problems with proliferation.

Now concerning the Shippingport reactor experience..

May I just remind you that a few month ago (in one of our last exchanges, if I remember correctly), you didn't even know that the
experiment was performed with U233. I hope that now you have taken the time to study the references i provided.

Just do the simple calculation how much energy a PWR could have produced with 500 kg of fissile material
(lets ignore for now that this U233 was produced in a rather inefficient way in the first place from U235/Pu239 fueled reactor)
instead of throwing these 507 kg away afterwards. (which was done more or less either because it was too expensive to use or
because it was contaminated and could not be cleaned .. I am missing the relevant document. If you have it please mail it to me!)

for the ProActinum intermediate neutron absorber. Just agree that this is a real problem people are working on it.
(it can not be addressed easily in todays software simulations!)

michael

So why do you argue that your "favorite design" (what is it by the way and why is nobody influential bothering to construct your wonder reactors) has no problems with proliferation.

<sigh> Look, nitwit, it has been explained to you several times over the past 3 chapters (and there is no reason for you to keep asking unless you are stupid, willfully ignorant or playing dumb to try to win rhetorical points):  the PWR, while far from my favorite, is effectively proliferation-proof because other means of making weapons material are far easier and harder to detect.  No proliferator has tried making a weapon using PWR material, and the major proliferation threats do not even have nuclear reactors on their power grid.

LeBlanc claims that the Denatured Molten Salt Reactor creates material which is even worse for weapons than PWR products.  After seeing how you select your facts to mislead and jump to conclusions not even justified by those facts, I give zero credibility to your attacks on his work.

May I just remind you that a few month ago (in one of our last exchanges, if I remember correctly), you didn't even know that the experiment was performed with U233.

May I remind you that it is not important whether Shippingport started with U-233 produced from U-235 elsewhere or with U-235 in the reactor itself.

Just do the simple calculation how much energy a PWR could have produced with 500 kg of fissile material

Do your own homework.  You have figures ready to hand, you should be able to do this on the back of an envelope—you should ALREADY have done the calculation before making this demand.  Just as you failed to check your figures on enrichment work vs. NU requirements, your failure proves that you are intellectually lazy and unwilling to look into details where you are afraid you will not like what you find.  Well, tough.  Beautiful theories slain by ugly facts are inimical to ideology, but are an inherent part of science.  Take off your ideologue hat and maybe we can talk.

actually there is not much point in arguing with you!
keep your unsubstantiated views! Your are only repeating (and not very well) some statements from pro nuclear people
picked up here and there. And you are probably incapable of analyzing the documents.
Of course this is just putting the mirror up in front of your blind attacks and thus reflecting what you wrote.
In any case I am looking forward for your long document of rebuttal!

but for what it matters if you would even bother to read what I wrote you would have seen this statement
connected to bombs..

2.2.1. Civilian and military use of nuclear energy, some remarks
The focus of this report is the commercial use of nuclear energy. As the evolution of nuclear energy has always been strongly coupled with the military sector, we feel that a few remarks about the dangers of nuclear weapons and the ambiguity of the commercial use of nuclear energy are needed. First of all, governments wishing to have nuclear weapons were not faced with unsolvable problems related to the development of fission bombs based on Pu239 and U235. This is especially true if nuclear physics and engineering knowhow had been built up under the umbrella of peaceful and commercial use of nuclear fission energy.

michael

Your are only repeating (and not very well) some statements from pro nuclear people picked up here and there.
... says the clown who gets all his statements from anti-nuclear sources.  You're projecting, and trying to pre-empt with the "tu quoque" fallacy.
And you are probably incapable of analyzing the documents.
... says the clown who
  1. Failed to address enrichment anywhere in his "comprehensive" series.
  2. Failed to respond to questions raised in the comments.
  3. Showed no comprehension of contradictory data presented by some of his own sources (e.g. world-nuclear.org).
  4. Was given a spreadsheet to calculate fuel/DU fractions and SWU requirements (by none other than yours truly), and still could not present numbers to show that his appraisal of the situation was correct, or even close to the truth.
I smell hypocrisy.  No, it's worse:  I smell the Dunning-Kruger effect.

And I was missing your enlightening refreshing arguments for almost a week.
Thanks for coming back (late).

>his statements from anti-nuclear sources.

which ones?

(did EP look at the references I provided kindly?)

yes he did

>his own sources (e.g. world-nuclear.org).

now I understand
the WNA and the IAEA are the anti-nuclear sources.

thanks for being always so clear!

michael

Dittmar, these days everyone car get all the necessary textbooks off Amazon, so your comment could be valid 40 years ago, not now. The fact that no peaceful nuclear energy is necessary was demonstrated multiple times (US, USSR, China, Israel, North Korea, etc.), as was the fact that having the nuclear power plants does not lead to weapons (see the list of countries with peaceful nuclear program without weapons.)

Here is quote from katana0182:

Nuclear weapons are not the inevitable result of the use of fissile metals for the purposes of man. They are the result of human choices as to what to do with those fissile metals, just as steel can be used to make swords and make plowshares.
It is up to us to determine what is to be done with steel, and it is also up to us to determine what is to be done with uranium. It is failures of men to live peacefully, not of technology, that cause swords and nuclear weapons to be built. And it is the success of men trying to live peacefully that will allow them to be retired.
Nuclear power, by the way, provides a priceless opportunity to create a more peaceful world and end the balance of terror - by ending scarcity of energy, a major motivation for war is eliminated (for example, war for petroleum), as covetousness is often at the heart of warfare and scarcity is the cause of much of man's inhumanity to man.

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/atomicrod/5312590339009342635/#142697

If you are "looking forward for your long document of rebuttal", please tell TOD editors to stop censoring it, and to publish it. It is long over due.

I don't know what you want to say with this ``wise statement" from your book.

Rethink your position with respect to Iran perhaps?

or
just imagine our species and its elites who could so far not figure out a way to live a single year without a war
and all having potential know how and infrastructure to make nuclear weapons.

How many of the 190 countries are capable of having a 50-100 year stable society without starting to take arms against another country?

concerning your "now famous" rebuttal.

I can assume that it is full of insulting statements (as you have demonstrated during the past)
unreferenced claims and so on.
Thus not the style of the oildrum or a scientific way of arguing.

But, as I know you have plenty of other websites available publish it there,
or send it directly to the WNA .. or elsewhere.

At the end it will be the readers who judge!

enjoy life go for a walk and relax,
decisions are not taken here!

michael

Iran could have Busehr up and running long time ago, if they didnt try to run a separate and clandestine nuclear weapons program! Now there are sanctions imposed due to their cheating.

Concerning the rebuttal, it does not contain any insults, and all the claims are well referenced. It merely points out your numerous miss-information attempts and lapses of logic in clear and consistent fashion.

Your inability to accept you are in error even after the error was pointed out to you multiple times - with references, together with your poor theatrics used to avoid answering relevant questions - also pointed out here, is exactly opposite to a scientific way of arguing.

If you are "looking forward for your long document of rebuttal", please tell TOD editors to stop censoring it, and to publish it. It is long over due.

TOD does not censor information -- to your chagrin, not even the information that Michael Dittmar has to offer.

The "rebuttal" article was not published until now, because it was (and still is) full of personal attacks. Gail even undertook the effort to rewrite the "rebuttal" article by removing the personal attacks, while leaving all of the factual criticisms intact.

The article would have been published a long time ago, if EP would have agreed to removing the insults, i.e., to concentrate on attacking the message, rather than the messenger.

If the messenger has an agenda, cheery-picks facts and ignores relevant information, this needs to be pointed out. It is not an insult to shed light on such gross manipulation.

An insult is to call the messenger a buffoon, which - in my personal opinion - is entirely appropriate, however none of that was included in the rebuttal.

LeBlanc claims that the Denatured Molten Salt Reactor creates material which is even worse for weapons than PWR products.

Well not only LeBlanc, this is rather obvious to everyone. The isotopic mixture in DMSR is about the most useless mix feasible in a reactor design, (due to high content of Pu242 and U238).
http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/ORNL-TM-7207.pdf

you still have not understood what I wrote.

"if the ruling elite of country that has the nuclear know how,
it can use this civil nuclear energy umbrella to do secretly the nuclear weapon construction."

please help to eliminate peacefully the danger from the Pakistan (and the other 2 non NPT member state countries and the 5 official one)
nuclear weapons.

We do really not need more countries with nuclear weapons!

michael

No you do not (want to) understand - states looking for weaponry need no such cover. They will physically "cover" the facilities themselves, keeping them secret and well separate from civilian power, if they have any. It has *always* been done this way, for many good reasons. This is entirely a strawman argument.

Indeed these days all the knowledge needed is out there. Including detailed designs and instructions. One example is the information published by House Intelligence Committee in 2006, conveniently in Arabic, as I've demonstrated earlier. The issues is how to persuade countries not to desire nuclear weaponry - which is politics, not technology. Technological fixes which limit nuclear energy are bogus at best, a tool to keep fossil interests fat and happy at worst.

Nuclear power, by the way, provides a priceless opportunity to create a more peaceful world and end the balance of terror - by ending scarcity of energy, a major motivation for war is eliminated (for example, war for petroleum), as covetousness is often at the heart of warfare and scarcity is the cause of much of man's inhumanity to man.

Nuclear energy is therefore a powerful aid to decrease tension between and within nations, to lessen a desire for (extremely) expensive investments into such weaponry.

for the ProActinum intermediate neutron absorber. Just agree that this is a real problem people are working on it. (it can not be addressed easily in todays software simulations!)

Dittmar, why don't you just stop making things up? Pa233 cross-sections are known well enough, the issue is with higher actinides. Please check with ENDF before making such unsubstantiated statements.

And for your information, the name of the element is Protactinium.

yes, Proactinium! right!

making things up..

cross sections are known well enough?

This is not what the "official nuclear energy scientists" are claiming in their documents.
Read the Gen IV road map document .. use the links in my paper.

michael

Dittmar, the Gen4 roadmap document says nothing like that! Again, please stop making things up.

The section on page 35 refers to a finding of the Grenoble group relevant to one particular design, which was since resolved - by them. It certainly does not refer to Pa absorption cross section. This is entirely your fabrication.

Indeed it seems like the Dunning–Kruger effect in action, along with a tendency to make stuff up to fit the pre-formed cognitive bias.

just look at the
section about the different reactor types
proposed for further studies...
(in the Gen IV document it is referenced in my paper)

michael

Yes that is what I did, here is the document http://www.gen-4.org/PDFs/GenIVRoadmap.pdf
and I didnt find anything to back up your claims. Please provide the page number and quote, or change your claims.

for the uranium resource problem look at the plot page 13

for the technology gaps and missing cross sections

start reading from page 21 onwards
look for "neutronics or neutronic data"

or page 35

``Cross Sections and New Fuel Data. Despite the successes of the prototypes, recent neutronics calcula- tions raise questions about the value of the temperature reactivity coefficient of the fuel salt. To gain confi- dence, new data measurements and qualification are needed."

but i guess if you make a search in the pdf document like
cross section neutronic or neutronics data
and read carefully what is written
it tells you all what is currently unknown.

but yes, read the entire section on what the technology gaps are
and complain to the Gen IV people if you know better!

michael

Indeed, nothing about Pa, and the cross-sections of concern are that of higher actinides, as I have already discussed. The problem mentioned on page 35 I have also pointed out already. It has nothing to do with cross sections, but with slow heating up of graphite in a particular accident scenario of a single fluid MSBR-type of a molten salt reactor, which was discovered (and solved) by the French group. There is an obvious need to build a prototype to confirm theoretical calculations, and actually to start to get anywhere close to commercial reactors. How surprising is that!

Your claim about insufficient data on protactinium cross sections is therefore a complete fabrication, an off-hand attempt to discredit the work of others by pulling stuff out of thin air.

You could ask the Grenoble group for technical details if you were interested in actual issues, however it seems to me you prefer to interpret documents without real understanding in a way which confirms your already pre-conceived narrative, which is what your critics are pointing to.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it".The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average, much higher than actuality

>Your claim about insufficient data on protactinium cross sections is therefore a complete fabrication, an off-hand attempt to discredit the work of others by >pulling stuff out of thin air.

where did I claim this?

i wrote in the article that according to the Road Map a large number of technical problems remain to be solved
and quoted the uncertainties of cross section problems as mentioned.

What is your problem with this statement?

>There is an obvious need to build a prototype to confirm theoretical calculations, and actually to start to get anywhere close to commercial reactors. How >surprising is that!

so when i say that it is still a long term project 10-20 years before a commercial reactor can be considered
you object

now you agree and write that it is kind of trivial!

I might be too critical with what people claim to be understood

but you are inconsistent.

thus we agree 10-20 years of research work are required before one can claim
that this should work?

michael

Since you brought it up, here is the graph from page 13 of the PDF:

What it says destroys your argument.  Even with an LWR-only once-through cycle using only uranium, we have enough uranium to go until 2060 (and use of thorium would extend the usefulness of LWRs far beyond the lifespan of any plant currently operating or planned).  Your projection of a fuel crisis by 2015 has ZERO support even from your own sources.

I also note that the fuel cycle R&D that you raise as a "problem" is for a system "optimized for transmutation of actinides from other reactors" (p. 36, col. 2, par. 4).  The chemistry issues appear to have been more or less solved, just requiring testing.  Since the prototypes have been successful, it makes one wonder what "measurements and qualifications" must be performed before a pre-production unit can be commissioned.  The report is silent on that issue, and your record of mis-interpretation does not allow anyone to trust your claims on this or any related matter.

"optimized for transmutation of actinides from other reactors"

Exactly - the issue is actinide cores for burners, where minor actinides (Am and Cm isotopes in particular) are present in much higher concentrations than had been conceived for breeder cycles. Therefore the respective cross sections need to be known with improved precision than deemed necessary in the original LMFBR program(s). This has obviously no relation to the thorium cycle and MSRs.

Now Dittmar misleads twice here: first he misrepresented the shift of political goals from breeders to burners as a deficiency of fast spectrum reactors, as if breeding would be technologically unfeasible. Second the above "ProActinium" cross sections show.

The problem with Dittmar's "studies" is not primarily the facts he presents, but those he does not present, and most importantly the spin of miss-information he puts into interpretation of these cherry-picked facts. The erroneous conclusions are result of the spin, and any rebuttal needs to demonstrate how this spin comes about. It is very unfortunate that TOD editors consider pointing out such ill-informed propaganda attempts as "insults".

let me answer you and EP at once.

first many thanks to EP for putting up the graph!

1) there is nothing about Thorium in this plot and you should not mix

the U238 use and the Th232 here.

The roadmap document (as some of you or the other ``nuclear will do it") mentioned
says certainly too little about Th232 use and a lot about U238.

The plot demonstrates that someone who plans to construct now a 60 year lifetime Gen III reactor
of whatever type and pays a lot for it will have it ready by lets say 2020 and the year 2060
even if the unconventional uranium resources can be fully used
a growth scenario of conventional reactors should run into troubles.

exactly what I said in my Chapter III paper.
Thus countries without uranium mines should think twice before investing 5 billion dollars and more
into something which has to be operational for a 60 years without fuel resources assured.

now for EP
>Your projection of a fuel crisis by 2015 has ZERO support even from your own sources.

what I was referring to in chapter I and II is that the balance between actual mining and
secondary resources is already now in a critical balance
(as is pointed out by the WNA documents as well and the Red Book does not hide it for those who
can read the press declaration ..

here it is again

The seriousness of this situation, largely ignored by the media, has been expressed in the IAEA and NEA press declaration of June 3, 2008, launching the 2007 edition of the Red Book [1], [2]:

"Most secondary resources are now in decline and the gap will increasingly need to be closed by new production. Given the long lead time typically required to bring new resources into production, uranium supply shortfalls could develop if production facilities are not implemented in a timely manner."

can't help that you do not like that statement. But it is a fact.

I wrote further that there is no indication that the actions are not taken
and it looks unfortunately unlikely that the military resources will be opened enough

thus supply shortages are very probably (not the running out!).
by the way the latest OECD data up to August 2009 are out and August saw a huge 4% decline in TWH produced from nuclear!
-1.2% for the year 2009 so far compared to the same period 2008. Lets see the last few month but the french nuclear power plants
appear to be in bad shape for the coming winter... (check yourself!). Bad for my stable electric energy situation this winter perhaps..
do you care?

EP writes further
>The chemistry issues appear to have been more or less solved, just requiring testing.

more or less and just testing required looks very convincing indeed!
> Since the prototypes have been successful
many? which ones after the Shippingport reactor from 30 years ago?

> what "measurements and qualifications" must be performed before a pre-production unit can be commissioned.
ask the WNA and the Gen IV nuclear experts.

for what it matters I repeat here the WNA document statement about thorium fuel reactors

"Despite the thorium fuel cycle having a number of attractive features, development has always run into difficulties."

Thus, your claims stand against the ones from the nuclear energy establishment and their experts.
Fight with them!

I am just a "critical" reader who wants to see hard experimental proofs and suggest that others
pro or contra nuclear energy should not be satisfied with religious belief statements.

for

> The problem with Dittmar's "studies" is not primarily the facts he presents

so thanks you accept the facts i present!

good point to conclude.

Lets start with the facts and try to figure out some conclusions!
what more can I ask for?
michael

1) there is nothing about Thorium in this plot and you should not mix the U238 use and the Th232 here.

Why not?  The supply of LWR fuel is not limited to uranium.  Lightbridge is working to commercialize thorium-uranium fuel and is looking at thorium-plutonium fuel (no new uranium required).

what I was referring to in chapter I and II is that the balance between actual mining and secondary resources is already now in a critical balance

"Critical balance", meaning that uranium-mining companies are not mining and stockpiling material for which they have no immediate customers.  The rebuttal essay (which I am neglecting in order to respond to you here) notes that there are a large number of mines in planning or construction.

"Given the long lead time typically required to bring new resources into production"

This "long lead time" is 2-5 years to full production for a rock mine, and as little as 1 year from construction to production for an in-situ leach mine.  The mines with the longest lead time don't even need to start construction until next year to meet demand for 2015.

> Since the prototypes have been successful
many? which ones after the Shippingport reactor from 30 years ago?

Yup, that's the last one.  It was successful enough to make the uranium-mining interests worry, just like the MSRE was enough to make the PWR interests worry.

Lets start with the facts and try to figure out some conclusions!
what more can I ask for?

I've been asking for you to consider the full range of facts (like enrichment and the effect on NU demand) since Chapter I, with nothing to show for it but evasions and insults from you.  Cellier objects to me lowering myself to your level, but I've little patience left for talking to a stone wall.  This is a situation which calls for a trebuchet.

4% in August. Nothing to do with shortages of fuel.
A car analogy. The fact that 4% of a fleet of cars have to go into the shop for spark plugs and other repairs has nothing to do with parking some of them because there is not enought gasoline to go around.

This is the in the noise type events. No one said that reactors do not need maintenance or that the French workers (or other workers) will not occasionally go out on strike

I didnt get your link to work in seamonkey...

" Thus huge efforts, including many basic research questions with an uncertain outcome, are needed before a large commercial breeder prototype can be designed…"

" One observes that only two FBR's are declared operational. "

Obviously these two statements cannot both be true.

" We conclude therefore, that ideas about near-future commercial fission breeder reactors are nothing but wishful thinking. "

Agreed. So where is the discussion about next generation (generation III) reactors? These are simple non breeder reactors, in many cases simpler than our first generation reactors, with fewer pumps, valves and piping, and simple passive safety systems including a core catcher that can contain a full meltdown. They can meet our needs for several hundred years while we develop affordable breeder reactors.

But that would only take a few decades if we made it a goal and funded it. The U.S. has not built an experimental power reactor since the 70s. There are dozens of ways to split uranium and thorium atoms. We should build demonstration models of each and use whatever works best.

" We further postulate that, no matter how far into the future we may look, nuclear fusion as an energy source is even less probable than large-scale breeder reactors, for the accumulated knowledge on this subject is already sufficient to say that commercial fusion power will never become a reality. "

A very short sighted opinion that fails to account for the impact of time. I expect that in time this quote will be right up there with claims that humans cannot tolerate velocities greater than that of a galloping horse.

Obviously these two statements cannot both be true.

I think he means a prototype breeder reactor that actually works as a breeder reactor should (i.e. it breeds sufficient fuel to keep the cycle going starting with previously bred fuel). The key word in the first statement is "commercial", as opposed to experimental. From the article:

In contrast to the experiments performed at the Shippingport reactor, where the initial core was already U233, a realistic Th232 reactor cycle must be started with an initial U235 or Pu239 core. Consequently, the experience gained with the Shippingport reactor experiment cannot be considered as a proof that the envisaged system can function. It follows that many more tests are needed, before a functioning large-scale prototype Th232 breeder reactor can be constructed.

So the main objection to Shippingport is that the initial fuel was 98% U233, not the mix that's produced in the breeding cycle; to verify that you actually have a complete commercial cycle (with >1 breeding ratio), you need to start with bred fuel, and that, it appears, has not been demonstrated.

A very short sighted opinion that fails to account for the impact of time.

I agree. But I think what Dr. Dittmar is trying to emphasize is that we need to be short-sighted for the time being. We don't have the time. We are in a crisis; our society does not have (or will soon lose) the necessary financial stability needed to fund all these expensive research projects (sad for me, since I for one will certainly need to abandon my career), all of this brought on, of course, by a scarcity of primary energy.

The failure of nuclear power to live up to its initial promises is not due to lack of funding or prowess on the part of engineers and physicists; it has to do with the inherent complexity in such endeavors. They are beyond the "measure of a man"; pulling them off requires massive coordination and huge amounts of capital, representing surplus energy. That's a good way to pull off impressive stunts, but not a sustainable basis for providing electricity (if such a thing is possible, considering how we use the stuff these days). It's not to say that nuclear engineering doesn't have a future; just not one powering society.

yes right

The key word in the first statement is "commercial", as opposed to experimental.

the keyword is commerical!

concerning "shortsighted"

somehow one performs experiments to learn something from it

if experiments fail and are orders of magnitudes away from what is required
and if even the most optimistic and unrealistic experimental simulations fail
and if the promoters fail to tell the tax payers what the real situation is

at some point one can give up to walk in a certain direction

like it happened in the fairy tail "emperors new suit" referenced at the end of my article!

[44] It seems that "history" sometimes repeats itself. Hans Christian Andersen (1837) fairy tale, "The Emperor’s New Suit," can be found at http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html.

michael

Micheal,

I was thinking about trying to compose a comment dealing with the fact that for fusion to become a commercial reality that numerous problems will have to be solve SEQUENTIALLY and that a bottle neck in any one spot could hold up the entire process -for instance the non existent materials that will be used to capture the heat while controlling the neutron flux cannot be tested until after a reactor capable of generating the flux is built, etc.

Most of us are aware that if the probability of sequential events are multiplied then the likely result of success can approach zero in short order if the sequence is long or if any of the probabilites are much less than unity.

If you or EP or one of the other regulars with engineering expertise would compose such a comment I am sure we would all appreciate it.I can't do a good job.

Well,

if you read again what I have written, I think you find the answer.

but in short any of the four major problems I list are so far away in the future that the only way to "keep" on going
is to hide as much as possible. That is what the ITER experts and others are doing successfully so far.

if they would tell the truth just about the tritium problem one could stop the project right away!
Similar for the other problems!

What do you tell a young person who tries to answer different questions than asked?

I guess shut up and answer first the question we asked you.

Why not telling the same to the plasma physicists?

michael

if they would tell the truth just about the tritium problem one could stop the project right away!

If YOU would tell the truth about the tritium problem, it might help.  Start with the fact that D+n->T is not the only way to make tritium (it's a byproduct of CANDU operation); Li-6+n->T+He-3 is quite feasible, and is the usual method used in the USA.  Also, Li-7 can make tritium by induced fission:

Li-7 + n + 2.466 MeV -> He-3 + T + n

The neutrons from D-T fusion are emitted at 14.7 MeV, so they have plenty of excess energy to breed tritium in Li-7 before being captured in Li-6 (neutron-induced fission of Li-6 is exothermic).

Dear EP,

you are just showing your ignorance here.
Just read some of the basic papers I linked about the tritium supply problem.
(start with the Website from Prof. Abdou UCLA for example)

you are orders of magnitude away (and years behind the knowledge of today).

Does your ignorance on the tritium question indicate that your ``knowledge" on other areas is as superficial
as you have demonstrated now?

Michael

"...We are in a crisis; our society does not have (or will soon lose) the necessary financial stability needed to fund all these expensive research projects..."

Tosh. For all of the caterwauling over "expense", ten billion US$ for ITER - spread out, apparently, over quite a few years - is absolutely, utterly lost in the noise. It's what, a mere two or three extravagant palaces of stupid moronic "entertainment" or bog-standard idiotic government boondoggles? So just what would be the big huge deal about pursuing even hundreds of such lines of research simultaneously?

Unless something, somewhere is made to work, be it nuclear, solar, or whatever, we will indeed drift into the nightmare beloved of the sort of American doomer who seemingly seeks to purify the world according to a notion that only horse-and-buggy "simplicity" could ever be "fair" to idiots and morons. Unfortunately, as things stand, the nightmare seems to be where the "precautionists" wish to send us, being that nothing is ever "safe" enough or cheap enough or "fair" enough (gee, we might need to keep some nuclear activities out of the hands of savage brutes, who ever could have guessed?) in their eyes to be a proper subject even of mere research. Is anyone prepared to say "yes" to researching anything that might have a glimmer of hope of scaling???

If the Tritium Issue is in fact as much of a dealkiller as the article claims, then that's more than enough reason to put those measly few billions into programs that have at least offered a proof-of-concept that stands a chance to work.

I have no problem with our funding research, but not if it's funding 'Perpetual Motion Machines', when we have real problems that need to be tackled using open, honest Scientific methods.

Pointing to other examples of wasted public funds does nothing to justify this one, if it indeed turns out to have had clearly unmanagable or unreasonable obstacles to it.

Is anyone prepared to say "yes" to researching anything that might have a glimmer of hope of scaling???

Amen brother.

I'm personally not super optimistic about the world's chances of averting a malthusian die-off in the next century (especially without a massive, coordinated global population reduction effort), but we at least need to *try* to come up with a FF replacement. Sometimes I get the feeling that many here would *prefer* the nastiest possible outcome over a genuine scientific breakthrough that forestalls a massive die-off.

So the next question becomes, between the Tritium and other concerns raised above for Fusion, IS there a glimmer of hope to it, or should we be redirecting that funding, and hence those scientists towards prospects that DO?

How much longer does this continually evasive source get to be chased, while say Ocean Power basically lanquishes?

Given how dire the consequences of not solving the problem may be, we need to be pursuing even low-probability options like this one - and pursuing them in a results-oriented way rather than just colonizing them for the sake of doling out stacks and stacks of airline tickets to conferences and award ceremonies in pleasant climes. The pace is so bloody slow that I'm not prepared to declare the job provably not doable, when a major block may very well be that the people involved, when they finally get a result, must query their grandparents' generation in order to remember how the experiment had been designed in the first place. (Perhaps fixing this would require pulling the project out of ultra-hyper-cautious jumping-at-every-shadow Europe, I don't know.)

So how about, for the time being, instead of pitting this against OTEC or thin-film solar or vertical-axis wind turbines or whatever, we shut off the funds for the Palaces of Stupid Moronic Entertainment - and the massive subsidies of consumption that are the house-buyer credit and the mortgage deduction - and divert the proceeds into both. How about we keep that up at a meaningful pace at least until we establish good, quality consensus (mindful of the extensive foolish history of declared impossibilities that were not impossible at all) that we're dealing with an impossibility.

Palaces of Stupid Moronic Entertainment

Please just don't cancel "Monday Night Rehabilitation"!
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-29210190611743_2077_1072175

but we at least need to *try* to come up with a FF replacement.

Whenever anyone uses the collective "we",they aremounting a political argument to force their fellow man into a particular chosen path. It is therfore natural that a counter argumentwill be mounted with just a much vigour. You may have a desire to try to find a repalcement for fossil fuels and you may have a belief that such a thing is possible. i on the other hand, do not. I prefer to spend my (life) energy on what I see as the most important things, which is living a fulfilling life and allow my fellow man to do the same. I have no desire to work harder to pay taxes so that you may indulge your reserach into a dreamed up fantasy, just as I would (and do) object to many things that our current crop of political leaders spend my hard earned taxes on. I ahve the same opinion of many ofthe green fantasies of covering the deserts in solar panels (of any flavour) at the taxpayers expense.

I have no desire to work harder to pay taxes so that you may indulge your reserach into a dreamed up fantasy, just as I would (and do) object to many things that our current crop of political leaders spend my hard earned taxes on.

My government spends massive amounts of my hard earned taxes on *many* things I object to and have no say in: bailing out Wall Street criminals, foreign wars of occupation, maintaining huge military bases in countries capable of defending themselves, massive subsidies and tax breaks for special interests, spying on other Americans, building bridges to nowhere, military techno-boondoggles, funding right-wing religious groups, welfare for illegals, building sports stadiums, etc.

Funding next-generation R&D in alternative and next-gen nuclear energy is not even *close* to the top of that list --either in terms of wastefulness or total $$ spent. You may call it a fantasy, but if "we" don't even try, then "we" have a 100% certainty of failure. Every new technology or scientific breakthrough has been greeted with intense skepticism, opposition and FUD. And most R&D never produces tangible results, much less breaks even on $$ invested. So what? Shall we all curl up in the fetal position and give up? That's the spirit that made this nation great...

A possibility of mitigating some of the worst consequences of post-peak decline is certainly worth spending a tiny % of our GDP and my tax money. In my opinion.

Just a simple question.

Did you ever notice that the budget deficit in most countries is huge
and that the "education system" is harmed by this.

True there are many many other useless things being payed for.

Like wars for oil for example.

But as I suggested, if you have hopes in thorium breeder reactors anytime soon

you need to move the billions of dollars from fusion research and from Generator IV (research)
if there would be any money given to that to your favorite thorium research ..

or better stop the military madness and destroy the armies!

Michael

" you need to move the billions of dollars from fusion research and from Generator IV (research) if there would be any money given to that to your favorite thorium research .. "

the money spent on energy R&D is a tiny cupcake compared to the size of the problem. We should be pushing every possible technology as hard as possible.

hi Bill,

perhaps I should comment your many comments all in one but I try one after the other

you write:
>the money spent on energy R&D is a tiny cupcake compared to the size of the problem. We should be pushing every possible technology as hard as possible.

does it mean you finally accept that we have incredible huge problems to solve before
nuclear fission can be declared to be "functioning"?

if yes great thanks a lot for spreading the word!
if not perhaps make clear what you mean.

michael

" does it mean you finally accept that we have incredible huge problems to solve before
nuclear fission can be declared to be "functioning"? "

Nuclear power has been functioning for several decades. It is the only proven technology that can eliminate most fossil generation of electricity. We should expand the construction of generation III reactors (the ones you don’t talk about) as fast as possible to reduce emissions and slow the rising cost of fossil fuel and thereby minimize human suffering during the transition off of fossil fuel.

There are many ways to split uranium and thorium atoms. Most have not been tested, and it is likely that many of them are better than out primitive steroidal submarine reactors. We should be building demonstration plants of all these in addition to pushing any other technology that has the potential to make energy cheaper than fossil fuel.

We should create a level playing field and pick the best technology. This has been my recommendation for some time.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4961#comment-459021

Do you support this recommendation?

ok,

i should have specified for those who have forgotten that we are discussing "breeders"
to say functioning breeders.

" does it mean you finally accept that we have incredible huge problems to solve before
nuclear fission with breeders can be declared to be "functioning"? "

I answered Gen III already in another comment

but here it is again
Gen IV people have written black on white
we need breeder(s) if we do not want to exhaust nuclear fission because of U235 supply.

argue with them!

you are among those who fail to make a quantitative prediction
instead you write
>as fast as possible to reduce emissions and slow the rising cost of fossil fuel and thereby minimize human suffering during the transition off of fossil fuel.

whatever this means please quantify. It is just ``hot air" like that!

concerning the support for all kind of ``demonstration prototypes"

well, once the energy problem is officially acknowledged and the urgency of peak oil is explained in normal schools for example
and once the military use of nuclear energy is abandoned and once real final storage exists and
so on (meaning that the policy of ``profit now pay later" has been exchanged with a policy
of do no harm for future generations and leave a cleaner place behind) .

we can start thinking if I would support the construction of `demonstration prototypes"

but I guess if this policy change has been achieved we are unfortunately all dead and
the question becomes obsolete.

michael

You want enough hurdels for nuclear power to never succeed?

I could tick of
"once the energy problem is officially acknowledged"
and
"the policy of ``profit now pay later" has been exchanged with a policy of do no harm for future generations and leave a cleaner place behind"
and we have done
"the urgency of peak oil is explained in normal schools"
for climate change and general environmental awareness
and we did
"once the military use of nuclear energy is abandoned"
about 40 years ago
and
"once real final storage exists"
will take some more time to get building but the research and siting is done and the machinery excists as prototypes that are being test run.

But I still get the impression that you realy mean that everybody should do this everywhere before new nuclear power is built or even any research is being done.

And what is logical with stopping the research while waiting for the solution of unrelated problems? And it is even stupider when you wait for solutions to problems that could be solved with the research.

I would absolutely love to have research reactors sited in Sweden. We are already host for
advanced scientifical equipment and we are investing in building more.

>I would absolutely love to have research reactors sited in Sweden. We are already host for
>advanced scientifical equipment and we are investing in building more.

fine with me ask for it!

for what concerns me I like to see a change of attitude

and in remembering Einstein

"a problem can not be solved with the same methods which created the problem".

but you do not need my support to succeed, just start to campaign
and try to free the money from other research budgets!

its your choice

good luck!

michael

Its being worked on. The government RnD budget has been expanding and we got a margin that so far has been ok for the financial crisis. To get a good future you got to build it.

" does it mean you finally accept that we have incredible huge problems to solve before nuclear fission with breeders can be declared to be "functioning"? " "

Michael. Some breeders have run well for first of a kind experimental machines. Others have not. This is the nature of engineering. Build a prototype, test it, see what works and what does not work. If everything works perfectly we learn that what we thought would work, does work. We gain new knowledge and make progress from our failures.

The fundamental principles of breeder reactor design are well and accurately known. Some engineering details have yet to be worked out to produce a successful design suitable for production in large numbers.

" Gen IV people have written black on white we need breeder(s) if we do not want to exhaust nuclear fission because of U235 supply. argue with them! "

You are not one of them now? Glad to hear you acknowledge that we have enough uranium for at least a few hundred years without breeder reactors. Plenty of time to develop them, so they are not our highest priority now.

" you are among those who fail to make a quantitative prediction "

I am comfortable with advancednano’s predictions.

Your lack of support for a level playing field and an aggressive R&D program to pursue energy sources of any kind that are cheaper than fossil fuel indicates that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. What is your motivation for such a cruel position?

" if it took 30 years to construct safe Gen II PWR's "

Which PWR's were unsafe? How many people have they killed? How many lives have they saved from coal plants that were never built due to their existence? How many lives would have been saved if we had continued building them at a substantial rate?

Early U.S. reactors were built faster and at lower cost than later ones because they were not encumbered by a huge regulatory and legal morass. They paid themselves off quickly and made their owners a lot of money. Many of them still do, making electricity for less than 2 cents/kWh.

The EPR is the Mercedes Benz of nuclear power plants. It has too many systems, too many components, too much complexity. It will never be cheap. I am not a big supporter of the EPR.

The thing I appreciate in engineering is Elegant Simplicity. Accomplishing the functional requirements with the minimum number of simple reliable components. Rube Goldberg solutions are easy to come up with; elegant simplicity is much harder and takes a bit longer, but is well worth it.

I like the AP1000

http://www.asmeconferences.org/ICONE16/pdfs/NewPlantsBeBuilt.pdf

and I like the Economic Simplified Boiling Water Reactor

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/nuclear_energy/en/downloads/ge...

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/nuclear_energy/en/passive_safe...

These are the ones you do not talk about, the ones that can make a big difference quickly.

I also like the modular reactor concept.

http://www.babcock.com/library/pdf/mpower.pdf

http://www.nuscalepower.com/index.php

And I support developing the simplest possible MSR running a once through fuel cycle that would use 1/3 the uranium that Gen II reactors use.

http://www.energyfromthorium.com/pdf/ORNL-TM-7207.pdf

" This means at least 30 years for designing a prototype Gen IV and with another 20 year learning curve "

Uranium supplies will be almost unlimited at $500/kg, so we do not need GenIV plants for hundreds of years, and Gen III plants are already built in Japan and elsewhere. They are evolutionary designs that take advantage of the experience and lessons learned with Gen II plants. Their performance will be even better.

Those modular concepts were realy nice! And I bet they are possible to rearrange for buiding underground in bedrock if you want close too rediculous security.

Bill, you are falling back into claiming unsubstantiated things
and blindly attacking instead of discussing and explaining.
(well may be you never changed..)

but in case:

>Michael. Some breeders have run well for first of a kind experimental machines. Others have not.

in the paper i gave a long list of breeder experience.
tell us which one I forgot, which one was a great experience (and why it was not continued)
and which one didn't work well and how you define that!

>The fundamental principles of breeder reactor design are well and accurately known.
yes correct!
>Some engineering details have yet to be worked out to produce a successful design suitable for production in large numbers.

indeed and that is what my paper describes. You didn't object to my list so i presume you agree with these ``details"
which translate into 20-30 years of expensive research work before a statement about larger scale construction can be made!
Thanks for agreeing again with me!

>" Gen IV people have written black on white we need breeder(s) if we do not want to exhaust nuclear fission because of U235 supply. argue with them! "
>
>You are not one of them now?

no, I am not one of them!
but if you would bother to read what I wrote or what the Road map document says you would know that
in the document they write and even have a nice diagram showing that ``we" run out of uranium within 30-50 years roughly and only
if one manages by miracles to exploit the unconventional resources.
>Glad to hear you acknowledge that we have enough uranium for at least a few hundred years without breeder reactors. Plenty of
>time to develop them, so they are not our highest priority now.

thus you are not capable or interested to read documents as you are a Mr know it all!
Why don't you do a minimum of homework first?

>you are part of the problem, not part of the solution
thanks for reminding me of the danger to write an article opposing the ideas of powerful interest groups and in a ``free society"
the way you deal with problems? Shoot first ask later!

> How many lives have they saved from coal plants that were never built due to their existence?
don't know? perhaps one can find numbers for how many people are killed because of existing coal power plants per GWe
what is this number and how many "americans" are killed by this cruel technology each year.
please give me a number and I am probably happy to support you activities to stop
``mountain top removal policies" in your country! great that you are an activist against this most cruel way to exploit coal
and just for a few years of greedy life

> I am not a big supporter of the EPR.
so you are a small supporter? what the hell are you trying to say? Destroy the french?
(freedom fries for ever?)

>The thing I appreciate in engineering is Elegant Simplicity.

if true, well why don't you go out for a walk in one of the few remaining natural beauties,
enjoy them and reflect on our "greatness".
Think for example to be someone who does archeology in 500 years from now
and what you would like to discover from the ruins of our society.

you might even compare this to some archeological discoveries from things made a few 1000 years ago!

michael
ps.. for
>I am comfortable with advancednano’s predictions.
great you are also offering a price to the oil drum every year you are wrong
thanks!

But I will only be paying if you are more right and have agreed to the terms where if I am right you pay me or my charity.

if you do not like me paying to the oildrum

bad luck!

anyway we have the numbers (and the agreement on how to decide who wins)
and we can check every year!

as you pointed out with an error margin of the guesstimate
(perhaps +-1-2% = 4-6 reactors) the reality check will come only in a few years from now!
but it is already interesting for 2009

michael
ps.. I am not after the money or interested in paying it to whatever charity you choose

So are you paying $20 to the oildrum if you lose ?
Then I can ask them how they plan to handle it.
I am willing to put my money at risk, it is not so much being after money.
It is a matter of a show of real confidence and belief in the predictions.

If you really believed in your numbers then you would have no fear in putting money at risk. But it seems that is not the issue. It seems to be a psychological thing where you are willing to intermediate a bottle of wine or use the oildrum as an intermediary instead of paying directly. Probably something related to your socialist ideology which drives your biases and worldview.

Anyway I will just need clarity from the oildrum as to how they will handle it, Because I think the loop can be closed. It needs to be closed because if you do end up weasling out of any obligation I do not want to be because of any amiguity or lack of clarity as to what was committed.

I also admit that there is significant risk that I could lose the 2009 portion of the bet series and I do not want to fulfill my obligations for 2009 if you are going to weasle out when I win 2010 through 2018. I am fully prepared to meet any obligations on these bets but I also want to see clarity and commitment on your end and the oildrum end if they are involved in this.

stop insulting!

i made my statement (as I said simple minded) long ago in chapter II and have my name as well as my professional background with it.

You did something only a few days ago (a simple ``copy" of the WNA estimate)
without telling your real name and professional background.
So give us all these details.

In any case we have reached a point and can check now for the future.

thats all required and now lets stop this!
(my last word on this bet with you!).

michael

I suggest that each person submit a check for $220 to the oil drum or agreeable neutral party. The money is to be deposited in an interest bearing account, and each year the winner will be announced and the winnings for that year delivered to the winner.

I will submit a check if Michael will cover an additional participant.

concerning the bet!

Why don't you all try to be a bit relaxed? Stress can only create heart attack in difficult times!

As I wrote in chapter II the numbers I presented are a comparison with the one from the McQuire Research group presentation.
It confronts a back on the envelope estimate with the one from a highly payed speculator group.

My numbers are a guess (i am willing to bet on). Not a serious estimate with error calculation and so on.
It should be understood like that and as I wrote many times.

The important thing in this estimate is that

1) uranium mining will not go up as quickly as "believers predict"
2) new nuclear power plants will all have longer construction times than predicted.
3) phasing out will happen faster (like old cars eventually get exchanged.
4) secondary resources are split into civilian and military.
I think my estimate of the remaining military reserves is the most up-to-date
and accurate enough.

Thus the slow phase out can only be stopped by opening the military reserves in a way similar to what is being
done since 15 years and after 2013. If this happens I am happy to pay my yearly bottle of wine to the oil drum
and I guess the editors will enjoy receiving it from me as a compensation for all their effort.
Like they would also acknowledge to receive it from anybody else.

Now, if you want a more serious guesstimate there should be uncertainties in the guess.

For this I would say the decline of nuclear produced kwh per year will be on average 1% for the coming 5 years
and faster if military reserves will not be opened (my unfortunate guess!). give it a +-1% 1 sigma error.

the exact % decline per year is tricky and "speculation" therefore a bet!

michael

Actually I did a little more than copy the WNA estimate. The WNA state of nuclear build is a primary input, but I also have verified key parts with statements from China, India, Russia and the other top countries and I have assessed the politics and other factors (financial strength etc...).

I also made modifications based on planned uprates and made estimates of uprates going farther out for the USA, Korea, Spain, France.

I have researched the situation in regards to uranium mines and other uranium supply and thorium supply. I know that fuel supply will not significantly impact the operation of nuclear reactors. Then it becomes how many reactors get built and how well will they be operated. I looked at the mines and the companies operating in Canada, Australia, Kazakhstan, Africa and Russia.

I have not hidden who I am, I just have not repeated it a bunch. Brian Wang, Nextbigfuture.com.

831 articles on energy
480 articles of the 831 are nuclear related
50% of the number of readers as oildrum
25% of the traffic as oildrum.

I believe the situation will diverge from the WNA figures to even higher nuclear power generation, but not to the certainty level where I would bet money on it. I am confident enough in our situation that I would dial up the money at risk to hundreds of dollars each year from 2010 onwards. But I did not bother stating that because my assessment was that it was going to be difficult enough to get a formal $20 per year bet. $20/year is trivial money, a token commitment. but something to encourage some formality to the process. A larger bet of hundreds each year would involve escrowing funds and pre-depositing the at risk funds as bill indicated to ensure no welching.

For some reason, you are imprecise and vague on many things. Some things you go into a lot of detail about but other things - "you can't go into details now."

Upside beyond my estimate:

* Most reactors will be extended to 60-80 years of operation
* UK reactor build 10+
* Hyperion Power Generations small uranium hydride reactors will get built. Over 100, 27MWe reactors by 2020, but that is only equal to about 2 large reactors. Will have big impact beyond 2020 as it gets ramped up. Unless nuclear fusion pans out which I think is highly likely. (IEC fusion, General Fusion, Tri-alpha Energy - field reversed colliding beam, and possibly lawrenceville plasma physics - Dense Plasma Focus)
* Some other small reactors will come into play 2015 and beyond.
* Operational/capacity factor improvement in Ukraine, Japan, Russia and other places
* china's pebble bed reactor modules. Possibly 2-3 dozen by 2020, 200 MWe per module. Again bigger impact 2020-2030 and beyond.
* Nuclear fusion can be a commercial success but not be a dominating commercial success. Dense plasma focus can dominating and P-b11 can be dominating. the price per kwh could become dominating, but there are possibilities for factor mass produced deep burn fission to compete with many types of commercial nuclear fusion.

>I have not hidden who I am, I just have not repeated it a bunch. Brian Wang, Nextbigfuture.com.
>
>831 articles on energy
>480 articles of the 831 are nuclear related
>50% of the number of readers as oildrum
>25% of the traffic as oildrum.

I see, what an ignorant person I am. Your are the editor of
a science fiction website!

(actually more fiction than science as far as I can see.)

but what you didn't specify

what is your education background?

thanks for enlightening me and others about that!

michael

According to Technorati ranking my site is a top ten science site. Recently about sixth or seventh.
http://technorati.com/blogs/directory/science/

In the green catogory (where oildrum is fifth or so), my site if 49th today and is usually 40-60.
http://technorati.com/blogs/directory/green/page-3/

If you dismiss my site so much then bet the small amount of money against my prediction.

You have a phd, work at CERN etc...

Doesn't your Phd (presumably in particle physics) make you right all the time about the future. The PHd and working at CERN like the position of pope must make you infallible.

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/03/hunt-for-hig...

Others are more forthright in their opinion of Dittmar's presentation. Tommaso Dorigo at the University of Padua, Italy, was in the audience during Dittmar's talk. He is a member of the collaboration behind one of the Tevatron's experiments, the Collider Detector at Fermilab (CDFII) and on his personal blog condemns "Dittmar's obnoxious seminar" with a style of strong language not normally associated with particle physicists - follow the link to read Dorigo's views on the presentation in full.

I see that you are famous for being obnoxious. The link being one of the top ten that comes up when we search on your name.

Your presentation
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?resId=0&materialId=slides&confId...

The Dorigo presentation
http://dorigo.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/a-seminar-against-the-tevatron/

Dittmar concluded his talk by saying that:

“Optimistic expectations might help to get funding! This is true, but it is also true that this approach eventually destroys some remaining confidence in science of the public.”.

His last slide even contained the sentence he had previously brought himself to uttering:

“It is the time to confess and admit that the sensitivity predictions were wrong”.

Finally, he encouraged LHC experiments to looking for the Higgs where the Tevatron had excluded it -between 160 and 170 GeV- because Tevatron results cannot be believed. I was disgusted: he most definitely places a strong claim on the prize of the most obnoxious talk of the year. Unfortunately for all, it was just as much an incorrect, scientifically dishonest, and dilettantesque lamentation, plus a defamation of a community of 1300 respected physicists.

In the end, I am really wondering what really moved Dittmar to such a disastrous performance. I think I know the answer, at least in part: he has been an advocate of the signature since 1998, and he must now feel bad for that beautiful process being proven hard to see, by his “enemies”. Add to that the frustration of seeing the Tevatron producing brilliant results and excellent performances, while CMS and Atlas are sitting idly in their caverns, and you might figure out there is some human factor to take into account. But nothing, in my opinion, can justify the mix he put together: false allegations, disregard of published material, manipulation of plots, public defamation of respected colleagues. I am sorry to say it, but even though I have nothing personal against Michael Dittmar -I do not know him, and in private he might even be a pleasant person-, it will be very difficult for me to collaborate with him for the benefit of the CMS experiment in the future

You seem to have plenty of PHD enemies. Plenty who disagree with you.

Yes, you have an excellent professional reputation that you are putting "on the line" with these 4 articles. No need to risk $20/year on top of your "professional reputation".

>You have a phd, work at CERN etc...

and so what nobody is perfect!

>
>Doesn't your Phd (presumably in particle physics) make you right all the time about the future.
>The PHd and working at CERN like the position of pope must make you infallible.
>

why? I never said anything like that!
on the contrary

> You seem to have plenty of PHD enemies. Plenty who disagree with you.

yes some and so what? only the yes men saying always "oh great" have many fake friends!

but for what it matters these people became very quiet as they could not reproduce the faked Higgs limit!

many people agree with me (even inside the Fermilab experiments) that the entire claims are not justified!

sure some people do not like that this is made "public".
This is how modern science has evolved to ..

you are invited to discuss my spring presentation
(it is off topic sure) and thanks for spreading the word.

in any case we have made out predictions now and
the years to come will tell.

regards

michael

For some reason, you are imprecise and vague on many things. Some things you go into a lot of detail about but other things - "you can't go into details now."

Upside beyond my estimate:

* Most reactors will be extended to 60-80 years of operation
* UK reactor build 10+
* Hyperion Power Generations small uranium hydride reactors will get built. Over 100, 27MWe reactors by 2020, but that is only equal to about 2 large reactors. Will have big impact beyond 2020 as it gets ramped up. Unless nuclear fusion pans out which I think is highly likely. (IEC fusion, General Fusion, Tri-alpha Energy - field reversed colliding beam, and possibly lawrenceville plasma physics - Dense Plasma Focus)
* Some other small reactors will come into play 2015 and beyond.
* Operational/capacity factor improvement in Ukraine, Japan, Russia and other places
* china's pebble bed reactor modules. Possibly 2-3 dozen by 2020, 200 MWe per module. Again bigger impact 2020-2030 and beyond.
* Nuclear fusion can be a commercial success but not be a dominating commercial success. Dense plasma focus can dominating and P-b11 can be dominating. the price per kwh could become dominating, but there are possibilities for factor mass produced deep burn fission to compete with many types of commercial nuclear fusion.

thanks for the precise statements and the details about all of these ``fantastic" options.

You know my main problem with such fantasy devices is that I have heard it again and again and since at least 30 years!

I have seen also "great" movies like "back to the future" and similar.

I support you

fiction will become true if we all think it will become true!
spread the word!

michael

" tell us which one I forgot, which one was a great experience "

You wrote; “The best operation experience comes from the Russian BN-600 FBR reactor… This reactor has been operated commercially for 28 years... Its average energy availability is given as 73.79%.”

And for Phenix; “an energy availability factor of 60.23% is given for 2008.”

The Shippingport reactor ran over 5 years un-refueled, achieved a capacity factor of 66% and contained more fissile fuel at the end of that run than it started with.

" (and why it was not continued) "

Because uranium is dirt cheap and submarine reactors are simple, well known technology. Also irrational fear of the word nuclear.

" i presume you agree with these ``details" which translate into 20-30 years of expensive research work before a statement about larger scale construction can be made! "

As I have said many times, breeder reactors are not needed to make the initial transition away from fossil fuel, but we should be building demonstration reactors of all types to move them along.

" in the document they write and even have a nice diagram showing that ``we" run out of uranium within 30-50 years roughly and only if one manages by miracles to exploit the unconventional resources. "

We may run out of $130/kg uranium in 50 years, but we will probably never run out of $500/kg uranium.

" you are part of the problem, not part of the solution
thanks for reminding me of the danger to write an article opposing the ideas of powerful interest groups and in a ``free society"
the way you deal with problems? Shoot first ask later! "

You refused to endorse a recommendation that would produce the best possible solution in the shortest time. A solution that is not biased in favor of fission or any other technology. You have not recommended any solution of your own other than decline or collapse. That makes you part of the problem.

" I am not a big supporter of the EPR. so you are a small supporter? what the hell are you trying to say? Destroy the french? (freedom fries for ever?) "

Yes, I am a small supporter of the EPR. It is a far better use of money than feed in subsidies for wind and solar facilities that produce small quantities of unreliable intermittent power.

" These are the ones you do not talk about, (AP1000, ESBWR) the ones that can make a big difference quickly. "

I see you are still not talking about the designs that can make a big difference.

" are you claiming that "we" do not know how to fission u235 in a reactor efficiently and that a bomb does better? "

For every 1000 kg of uranium mined, Gen II reactors fission 6kg. Breeder reactors can improve that to 600 – 990+ kg.

The purpose of the explosive technique is to produce fusion energy. The bomb design would be focused on producing the minimum possible amount of fission so as to minimize the amount of radioactivity / kWh and minimize the use of uranium.

Large cold war weapons used a stair step approach. A small fission device ignited a small fusion device which ignited a larger fusion device. If that becomes possible using a very small source with non fissile ignition, laser ignition for instance, than fission can be completely eliminated. The lasers would not require a rapid firing rate, but the faster they fire the smaller the chamber would be. So we are talking about inertial confinement fusion on a very large scale, not fission.

Questions never answered;

1…What is your motivation for such a cruel position?

2…Which PWR's were unsafe?

3… How many people have they killed?

4… How long does it take a coal plant to breed enough coal to start up a second coal plant?

5… Why would anybody take the most difficult, expensive and time consuming road to nuclear weapons when the two easy, cheap and fast roads, enrichment and plutonium production, are always available, even if the world forgoes commercial nuclear power?

6… What is the world’s uranium supply, in tons, at 1 cent / kWh, ($200 / pound)?

7… Where is the discussion about the well proven next generation (generation III) reactors, the designs that will actually be built in the next decade or so?

8… What is your better solution and what does it cost?

As I have said many times, breeder reactors are not needed to make the initial transition away from fossil fuel, but we should be building demonstration reactors of all types to move them along.

" in the document they write and even have a nice diagram showing that ``we" run out of uranium within 30-50 years roughly and only if one manages by miracles to exploit the unconventional resources. "

We may run out of $130/kg uranium in 50 years, but we will probably never run out of $500/kg uranium.

" you are part of the problem, not part of the solution
thanks for reminding me of the danger to write an article opposing the ideas of powerful interest groups and in a ``free society"
the way you deal with problems? Shoot first ask later! "

You refused to endorse a recommendation that would produce the best possible solution in the shortest time. A solution that is not biased in favor of fission or any other technology. You have not recommended any solution of your own other than decline or collapse. That makes you part of the problem.
<\blockquote>

can you explain why "you" think we need to make a transition away from fossil fuels
and how fast?

For proposing the ``best possible solution in the shortest time"

Well, in my view and in the views of many here on the oildrum

the peak oil problem (oil makes about 40% of our energy sources and almost 100% of transport) is about to start is terminal decline.
by lets say 2%+-1% / year within the next few years starting date varies from 2008 to 2012(?) and few imagine a plateau
up to 2020 and the decline afterwards compared with demand growing 1% population growth and 2% from never ending growth demand.

thus, the problem is if this decline can be compensated by other means (just theoretically).

My 4 papers are on the nuclear option, the holy grail for the future for some.

The analysis demonstrates that the world wide nuclear energy situation is not in the claimed (since 5 years?)
nuclear renaissance phase and that in fact since 3 years the number of nuclear TWhe produced declines by 0.5-1% per year.

since two years now not a single new nuclear power plant has been connected to the grid and a few have been closed.
The "half" functioning Breeder reactors are in fact not breeders but fast reactors and will be closed
now (in France) and in spring in Russia after not even 30 years of operation. A real convincing argument that everything is great about breeders.

Back to the problem. If today nuclear fission energy with all the problems related (and many unsolved) provides only 14% of the world electric energy
in 31 countries (out of 190 or so) it appears that only rich countries can afford and manage to construct conventional nuclear power plants.
In these countries and especially the OECD countries the stagnation and decline is unstoppable and acknowledged.
(Euratom document). A large fraction of the population in these OECD countries is opposing nuclear energy and a large fraction of these
opposers are also opposing new coal fired power plants. This in contrary to nuclear activists (the crowd following blindly the nuclear energy establishment)
who never oppose anything coming from the coal and fossil fuel establishment)

(by the way are you an activist against "mountain to removal coal mining" like saying stop coal mining go nuclear?
if not do me a favor make yourself consistent and become an activist against this disaster!)

You finally(?) acknowledge that we may run out of uranium for a price tag of 130 dollar/kg and in 50 years
great! So my papers achieved something!

50 years times 65000 tons/ year = 3.3 million tons!
the number from the Red Book!

can you imagine a exploitation profile for these 3.3 million tons? flat and a sudden end?
or more like a gaussian curve?

for
>
>Questions never answered;
>

well I think i answered many during the last three months.
but as we are approaching an end for this series let me try again

> 1…What is your motivation for such a cruel position?

cruel? perhaps .. the answer i provided at the very end of this paper!

"Science promised us truth, or at least a knowledge of such relations as our intelligence can seize: it never promised us peace or happiness"
Gustave Le Bon

2…Which PWR's were unsafe?

I said PWR's are probably the most safe of all types like:

>Fast reactors are known for their worrying safety record. For example, it might be true that serious incidents, like the one that happened with the Chernobyl >graphite moderated reactor, cannot happen with modern PWR's. However, only very few nuclear experts would agree to such a statement for sodium cooled >FBR's.

concerning the reports on Three Mile Island accident, as well as many other small incidents which cause 1-2 year shutdowns.
Like you and me "aging" does increase the risk of certain failures.
Just wait for another "human" error which will result in a nuclear meltdown in one of the old reactors.

3… How many people have they killed?

difficult to answer! lets try to make a time travel and
quantify the "dieoff" cost in humans and the effect of those who refused to accept the way down the mountain

Can you specify how many people will be killed because of the emission of Co2 in the next 100 years?
I can't but I would prefer to not enter into the "danger" zone.

4… How long does it take a coal plant to breed enough coal to start up a second coal plant?

stupid provocative question for ever!
but how long does it take to do this with a windmill
or the Thorium reactor like the Shippingport reactor?

5… Why would anybody take the most difficult, expensive and time consuming road to nuclear weapons when the two easy, cheap and fast roads, enrichment and plutonium production, are always available, even if the world forgoes commercial nuclear power?

sure, as I wrote you only need a little nuclear energy infrastructure and you can do the cheap way.

6… What is the world’s uranium supply, in tons, at 1 cent / kWh, ($200 / pound)?

I have no idea! not much more than it is today!

As I wrote in the articles (probably more than once)

energy independence is the claimed goal of many countries
why has the production in the USA gone from 19000 tons (or so) to now less than 2000 tons per year
while the needs are roughly 20000 tons per year?

why have essentially all OECD countries with a large nuclear power fraction stopped their uranium mines?

But as you know it all please explain this contradiction to me and others!

7… Where is the discussion about the well proven next generation (generation III) reactors, the designs that will actually be built in the next decade or so?

What is so special about Gen III reactors? a factor of 10 more safety? a factor of 2-3 more expensive.
and after all what was wrong with Gen II (or I). According to you and others they were and are more or less perfect.

For me the principle of fissioning uranium 235 and Pu239 is essentially identical.

But as you know it all .. out of the 52(?) reactors under construction how many are Gen I, Gen II and Genn III
and how many are the wonder secret small reactors

8… What is your better solution and what does it cost?

As far as I know my papers were not about a solution.

I wrote about a claimed hypothetical solution and demonstrated that it is not a solution.
This is how science is supposed to work

Hypothesis testing and if shown to be "wrong" change the hypothesis.

thus to conclude

We have not nuclear energy solution to our problems

michael

" A large fraction of the population in these OECD countries is opposing nuclear energy "

59% of Americans support nuclear power.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117025/Support-Nuclear-Energy-Inches-New-High...

84% of Americans living near nuclear power plants favor nuclear energy!

http://www.cleanenergyinsight.org/tag/poll/

" (the crowd following blindly the nuclear energy establishment)
who never oppose anything coming from the coal and fossil fuel establishment) "

A nonsensical statement. Nothing can replace coal and gas faster or cheaper than nuclear power. This is why they never mention nuclear in their tv adds, only wind and solar. They know wind and solar will not hurt the fossil fuel industry.

" (by the way are you an activist against "mountain to removal coal mining" like saying stop coal mining go nuclear? "

That should be obvious.

" You finally(?) acknowledge that we may run out of uranium for a price tag of 130 dollar/kg and in 50 years great! So my papers achieved something! 50 years times 65000 tons/ year = 3.3 million tons! the number from the Red Book! "

So what! Uranium is still cheap at $500/kg, but you never address that seriously.

" I said PWR's are probably the most safe of all types like: "

Actually you wrote; “every new system has a learning curve of many many years if it took 30 years to construct safe Gen II PWR's and we have a long learning curve for an EPR”

So, you imply 30 years of unsafe Gen II reactors, PWR's and BWR’s.

1… Name the unsafe reactors.

2… How many people did they kill?

" Just wait for another "human" error which will result in a nuclear meltdown in one of the old reactors. "

Before TMI some people claimed that once a meltdown begins it is unstoppable and will kill huge numbers of people. But, at TMI the meltdown began and was stopped. New reactors have core catchers to re-solidify melted cores.

3… If one airliner crashed every 30 years and killed no one, would that be grounds to shutdown the airlines?

" What is the world’s uranium supply, in tons, at 1 cent / kWh, ($200 / pound)?
I have no idea! not much more than it is today! "

Interesting, you have no idea, and then you have an idea.

4… What is it based on? Are uranium atoms like marbles in a box? The available number is independent of the price offered?

5… Do you think every atom of uranium on earth is available at $130/kg?

6…What other minerals have a supply that is independent of price?

" why has the production in the USA gone from 19000 tons (or so) to now less than 2000 tons per year… why have essentially all OECD countries with a large nuclear power fraction stopped their uranium mines? "

Because other countries have abundant supplies of uranium and people willing to work hard for a modest wage. Also because the energy of uranium is so dense that shipping costs are negligible.

" What is so special about Gen III reactors? a factor of 10 more safety? a factor of 2-3 more expensive. and after all what was wrong with Gen II (or I). According to you and others they were and are more or less perfect. "

Fewer safety related components, passive safety features, better instrumentation and control systems, easier to construct, less material, longer life, higher fuel burnup, higher capacity factors.

" thus to conclude
We have not nuclear energy solution to our problems
"

A conclusion that floats in a vacuum, like a rogue asteroid, doomed to self destruction.

1) a large fraction does not mean the majority. please read more carefully what I wrote!

2) you are an activist against mountain top removal in the USA? any proof?
did you sign campaign, write letters etc?
can i find some comment from you on a related oil drum article perhaps
thanks for pointing this out to me!

3) > So what! Uranium is still cheap at $500/kg, but you never address that seriously.
just look at the oildrum article on gold mining and the diagrams in the discussion about ore grade and energy costs
comment there! it says it all!

Energy independence is a goal you agree so why has the US uranium mining industry almost stopped?

1… Name the unsafe reactors.

well some in Germany Brunsbuettel, Kruemmel do not have impressive safety records.

Japanese reactors constructed in an earthquake region

UK and Russian graphit reactors (Gen I or II or what they are called political correct?)

EPR just got a strong hit in the face from the French/British and Finish security authority known to be not very critical
about a safety design error and AREVA said right away .. we will change this.
Strange before this it was considered to be a factor of 10 safer than the older reactors.

``I have no idea! not much more than it is today! "

>Interesting, you have no idea, and then you have an idea.

ok you asked me for a statement so i answered
a my guess .. not much more mining than today

in case in my view you can compare with the oil extraction from oil sands and its limits
if you want!

but in any case as our exchange is coming to an end now.

Let the data of the next 5-10 years decide!

michael

" 1) a large fraction does not mean the majority. please read more carefully what I wrote! "

I never said it did. Please read more carefully what I wrote!

" you are an activist against mountain top removal in the USA? any proof? "

Nuclear power offers the fastest way to shutdown coal. Being anti nuclear is pro coal. I have mentioned coal several times in these comments, for example;

"I cannot think of an accident that would kill more people than the routine operation of a coal plant”

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/feb2006/2006-02-15-02.asp

Please read more carefully what I wrote!

" So what! Uranium is still cheap at $500/kg, but you never address that seriously.
just look at the oildrum article on gold "

A clever way to avoid addressing the point, which is, that uranium is very cheap. Gold production has peaked many times.

http://www.dani2989.com/gold/productiondorcyclesgb26072004.htm

I will bet you $200 that gold production peaks higher in the next 40 years.

" why has the US uranium mining industry almost stopped? "

I answered this in my last post. “Because other countries have abundant supplies of uranium and people willing to work hard for a modest wage. Also because the energy of uranium is so dense that shipping costs are negligible.”

Please read what I wrote!

" Name the unsafe reactors.well some in Germany Brunsbuettel, Kruemmel do not have impressive safety records. "

1…How many people have they killed.

" Japanese reactors constructed in an earthquake region "

Yes, they sloshed some slightly radioactive water.

2…How many people have they killed.

" UK and Russian graphite reactors (Gen I or II or what they are called political correct?) "

Not correct, you wrote “it took 30 years to construct safe Gen II PWR's”

Graphite reactors are not included. Please read more carefully what YOU wrote!

[ “EPR just got a strong hit in the face from the French/British and Finish security authority known to be not very critical about a safety design error and AREVA said right away .. we will change this. Strange before this it was considered to be a factor of 10 safer than the older reactors. "

The EPR is under construction. Changes are not unusual. Reactors are continuoually upgraded during the course of their life.

4…What would the probably of a large radioactive release have been without the changes, and what will it be with the modifications. The EPR has a core catcher in the design.

5… Do you know for a fact that without the changes it would have been more likely to harm the public than an older design? Show us the data.

6… By what scenario would the public be injured by the EPR.

ok,

you are not an activist against mountain top removal.
You are just pretending!

Ever heard the slogan "no coal, no nuclear and lets powerdown"

>name unsafe reactors

i did!

that something is not safe does not mean that the worst case will happen!

I added the graphite moderated reactors (should i have said stronger that these are not PWR's, I thought that this was obvious
but sorry for the misunderstanding anyway they are now considered as Gen I or II and making about 20 GWe worldwide 5% of the total cake).
anyway

do you agree that the british and russian graphite one are not perfectly safe?
Thus we better close them soon.

For what it matters .. sodium cooled fast reactors

are they safe? do you want to have one in your backyard?

I do not know many pro nuclear people who like sodium cooled FR's (even if they call them FBR) nearby.

michael

" Ever heard the slogan "no coal, no nuclear and lets powerdown" "

Bravo, finally you have come out of the closet and revealed your true agenda. Of course many of us knew it from reading your first post, but now there is no doubt. I am just posting this so you cannot change it. You are a very cruel man.

true agenda?

or just concluding according to hard facts?

but I was never hiding that Power Down is unavoidable.
(perhaps I could add a tiny convincing bit in this
with discussing the real situation with nuclear energy and its future.)

yes, fossil fuels will start declining
nuclear will follow the same.
If we like it or not. This is not cruel just unavoidable.
Like the fact that winter will be colder than summer.

What we are leaving behind us for future generations will be very ugly indeed.
(and rosting nuclear submarines are just one ugly example in the entire nuclear chain
I did not have time to discuss this.)

And all this thanks to the people who still think the earth is infinite!

and to put the quote again

"Science promised us truth, or at least a knowledge of such relations as our intelligence can seize: it never promised us peace or happiness"
Gustave Le Bon

the one from Einstein is also relevant here

``The problems of today can not be solved with the same methods that created the problems"

regards

and lets see how things evolve.

michael

Please watch the video 'Is Nuclear Power a Climate Fix or Folly?': http://www.rmi.org/rmi/

Look at the diagrams in Amory's presentation, listen to what a leading spokesman from the nuclear industry has to say about it and listen to what a power company CEO says. They all conclude: Per dollar nuclear is one of the least efficient ways of replacing coal and lowering CO2 emissions. Even new coal plant designs with lower CO2 emissions are more efficient per dollar. Wind and solar are at least a factor 1x more efficient and energy savings 'off the chart' more efficient.

Now how about that when you claim: Nothing can replace coal cheaper or faster then nuclear ?

According to the nuclear spokesman the most important argument in favor of US nuclear is: 'having nuclear power yourself allows you to say to other countries that they cannot have nuclear power. If you don't have nuclear power you cannot...'. Now, that statement dropped my jaw on the floor... Because you have nuclear power you can tell others they cannot? Wtf? And that's the most important argument he could make?

Lovins may well be the greatest snake oil salesman of our time. The best snake oil has some active ingredients. Many of the things Lovins says are true, but his logic and conclusions are deeply flawed.

He is a master at using a hand calculator. For example, he says we can eliminate most coal burning simply be running existing gas plants wide open, especially at night, at a lower cost than building nuclear plants. He does not discuss what that would do to the cost of gas, or how the emissions would compare.

It would take many hours to assemble a full rebuttal to this presentation and I am not going to do that, but if you have a specific issue that you think is rock solid bring it up.

For example, Lovins mentions that nuclear carbon emissions are higher than wind and solar and references Dr. Sovacool’s paper which claims 66 gms CO2/kWh. But under cross examination Sovacool acknowledges that his results do not apply to future plants.

Question. “Is you goal to produce a paper on; (A) The world’s historical emissions of CO2 from nuclear power plants, or (B) CO2 emissions from future Gen III reactors built in the U.S.?”

Sovacool. “Point well taken. Really the paper was not meant to be either A or B—I just wanted to see what the literature said about GHG emissions from nuclear plants—but in the end I suppose it ended mixing A and B up.”

Question. “If the U.S. ramped up to 80% nuclear and 20% wind/solar, the fossil CO2/kWh from nuclear power would be a small fraction of the paper’s estimate.”

Sovacool. “If the US ramped up to 80% nuclear and 20% renewable, GHG emissions would greatly drop and society would improve. No argument there.”

See the comments below this document.

http://www.scitizen.com/screens/blogPage/viewBlog/sw_viewBlog.php?idThem...

Many of the flaws in Lovins analysis have been documented.

http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2009/11/amory-lovins-vs-stewart-bran...

http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/search?q=lovins

http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/search?q=lovins

My recommendation is to push every technology as fast and far as possible. The goal is to make energy that is cheaper than fossil fuel.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4961#comment-459021

I do not see Lovins calling for this approach.

I feel like I've been misunderstood. I don't romanticize about horses and buggies. I do research related to solar cells and the like. What guides my research is finding a way to harness energy will LITTLE EMBEDDED COST; these nuclear ideas are all fine and well, but they require MASSIVE INVESTMENTS, and the last I checked, WE'RE BROKE! How much longer will we continue to steal from the future (and the other residents of this Earth) in some vain hope of getting ourselves out of this mess?

This is why I support research like Polywell fusion, because it's simple and cheap and safe (you can practically build a Polywell reactor in your garage); it's still speculative, but it's worth pursuing because it's low complexity, and so has a shot at making it through our current transition. The time for enormous government led efforts has come and gone; we need to think about what we can develop more locally and in smaller efforts. "Doing everything" is not an option; if fact, it seems a bit desperate.

More complexity is not going to solve our problem. Simplification doesn't mean horses and buggies; but it doesn't mean business as usual either. Burning up resources at a frantic pace in the efforts of getting yourself out of a pickle is a very bad idea. Remember, the first thing you do when you find yourself in a hole is STOP DIGGING.

What guides my research is finding a way to harness energy will with LITTLE EMBEDDED COST; these nuclear ideas are all fine and well, but they require MASSIVE INVESTMENTS, and the last I checked, WE'RE BROKE!

Actually, you've just articulated the reason that I'm strongly in favor of nuclear power. Because contrary to your belief, it has by far the lowest embedded energy cost of any non-fossil energy resource*. A factor of ten lower than the runner-up, which would be large wind turbines.

Don't confuse embedded energy cost and financial cost. The high financial cost of nuclear plants (in the US and the EU) is due to the overhead of a zero-tolerance process that is supposed to guarantee absolute safety. It has only the most tenuous connection to the actual embedded energy costs of the steel, concrete, and other components that go into building a nuclear power plant.

In his book, Sustainable Energy without the Hot Air, David MacKay points out that the energy cost of the concrete, steel, and other alloys in a large nuclear plant is about one tenth what it is in a large wind turbine, on the basis of kilowatt-hours delivered per year. The only thing that prevents the cost of nuclear power from dropping to better reflect its embedded energy costs is experience and learning curve, plus entrenched interests and politics. (Did I say "only"?)

It appears that China, at least, is making good progress toward achieving that drop. They keep revising upward the number of reactors that they plan to build in the next two decades. One report that I recall reading said that their cost for Chinese-built AP-1000 reactors was already lower than new coal plants in this country. I don't know if that's true and didn't save a link to the source, but it's entirely plausible.

----
* (with the exception of large hydroelectric dams -- which have their own problems and are in any case largely maxed out).

Don't confuse embedded energy cost and financial cost. The high financial cost of nuclear plants (in the US and the EU) is due to the overhead of a zero-tolerance process that is supposed to guarantee absolute safety. It has only the most tenuous connection to the actual embedded energy costs of the steel, concrete, and other components that go into building a nuclear power plant.

My concept of embedded energy cost derives from Jeff Vail's analysis of EROEI:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5580

If you haven't had a chance to read through this series I would highly recommend it; it really changed my views of how to calculate the real embedded energy cost of a project. Vail starts by noting that the embedded energy cost has a "fat tail" distribution as you expand the "boundary" of your project; in this case, all those "non-energy" costs you cite are social costs which themselves represent some kind of embedded energy (education for plant workers, tooling, safety, etc.). His basic conclusion is that financial cost is the best available proxy for total invested energy.

This method is not perfect, but I think it provides a very good starting point for evaluating the true costs of energy endeavors; it is effectively a measure of the "complexity" of the project. My basic argument against commercial fission is that this complexity cost is very high, and thus it is not bound to serve us well in our immediate future.

Of course, this is the last thing a nuclear engineer wants to hear! I think there are fantastic future uses for fission power, especially in shipping and maybe even space travel: uranium/plutonium are unique, highly concentrated fuel sources which we have largely mastered. I think these resources have much better uses than in sedentary electricity plants; this mad scramble to "save civilization" using any and all available resources is the very definition of catabolic collapse.

One way the U.S. could drastically cut it's financial + embedded energy costs while still ramping up Gen-III or IV nuclear is to do what France did: standardize plant design and construction. That and limit the NIMBY drawn out legal challenges that usually halts new construction here.

Nuclear power may never be "too cheap to meter", but it sure doesn't *have* to be as expensive as it currently is here.

???? I am getting confused. Usually one hears that nuclear fission energy in PWR's is the cheapest.

no I presume that you are an advocate of more nuclear power you say it is not?

Michael
ps.. AREVA from France is currently going through a difficult period with their new wonder Gen III reactor
which was just declared as having a ``flawed safety system".

do what France did: standardize plant design and construction.

That's been done.  The new licensing regime is a combined construction and operating license.  Designs are now certified once, not for every plant.

That and limit the NIMBY drawn out legal challenges that usually halts new construction here.

The combined construction and operating license did that.  This is why there has been an explosion in applications for new reactor licenses in the USA.

More details coming in the rebuttal essay that's been in the pipeline since early October. :/

A factor of ten lower than the runner-up, which would be large wind turbines.

Why are you lying?

According to the EIA the costs for nuclear power are higher than for wind:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/archive/ieo06/pdf/elec_boxtbl.pdf

Needless to say that the costs for new nuclear power plants have been rising considerably and nuclear power plants have long construction times, require water, depend on uranium imports, have high decommissioning costs and require an ulitmate repository.

http://www.thestar.com/article/665644

AECL's $26 billion bid was based on the construction of two 1,200-megawatt Advanced Candu Reactors, working out to $10,800 per kilowatt of power capacity.

The bid from France's Areva NP also blew past expectations, sources said. Areva's bid came in at $23.6 billion, with two 1,600-megawatt reactors costing $7.8 billion and the rest of the plant costing $15.8 billion. It works out to $7,375 per kilowatt, and was based on a similar cost estimate Areva had submitted for a plant proposed in Maryland.

http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=55119

Exelon estimates that it would require more than $1.1 billion (in 2007 dollars) to decommission the plant .

David MacKay points out that the energy cost of the concrete, steel, and other alloys in a large nuclear plant is about one tenth what it is in a large wind turbine.

Even if that were true. A Vestas 3 MW wind turbine including steel tower weighs approx. 100 tonnes per MW. This relates to steel costs of about $80 per kW or approx. 1% of the capital costs of a new nuclear power plant:
http://www.vestas.com/Files/Filer/EN/Brochures/Vestas_V_90LOW.PDF
http://www.steelonthenet.com/commodity_prices.html
Besides a wind turbine tower can also be build out of wood which is not an option with nuclear power plants:
http://www.timbertower.de/index.php?id=1&L=1

So your friend David McKay is obviously not the brightest bulb and perfidiously disclaims wind energy at any opportunity.

These things are so complicated. PMike is comparing embedded cost, which he defines as only the cost of concrete and raw steel materials. His point is that most of the cost of a nuke is other costs, such as engineering and manufacturing the special equipment.

The $100/KW cost of the wind tower you mention comes from the rated power; the capacity factor will be approximately 30% for wind compared with 90% for nuclear so the comparison cost has to be ~$300/KW. So PMike is estimating $30/KW for concrete and raw steel, or $30 million for a 1 GW plant, but not including any of the manufacturing or construction costs, or land, or infrastructure, etc.

A professor at UC Berkeley has worked out the numbers and they are not much different from PMike's rough estimate. You can see the results at http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/07/per-peterson-information-on-steel-and.html. Please don't accuse people of lying; there's enough hostility on this page already.

So PMike is estimating $30/KW for concrete and raw steel, or $30 million for a 1 GW plant, but not including any of the manufacturing or construction costs, or land, or infrastructure, etc.

Which is like saying: This Rolex must be really cheap, because there's only a few dollars of metal in it.
Do you agree that this statement is ridiculous?

Please don't accuse people of lying; there's enough hostility on this page already.

I'm sorry, but fact is that he was lying about wind power and was purposely badmouthing it and you actually did confirm that he was lying as you didn't show anything remotely that confirmed his ludicrous statement that new nuclear power is 10 times cheaper than new wind power.

Yes, the Rolex statement is ridiculous. It isn't the statement PMike made about nuclear vs wind. He was only addressing the cost of raw materials. It only is pertinent to the comparison of the raw materials required for energy alternatives. He did not say that new nuclear power is 10 times cheaper than new wind power, only that the raw materials are an order of magnitude lower, or roughly 10 times cheaper.

You can visualize this if you like. Consider a 1.5 MW wind turbine, which may be considered typical, although larger ones are also being manufactured. It is a very large structure with a rotor-tip height of 450 feet. To get the same energy as a 1 GW nuke would take some 2000 such turbines spread over 130 square miles, connected with maintenance roads and underground power lines, plus inverters, transformers, etc. To say that this strikingly large project would take 10 times the materials as a nuclear power plant is quite reasonable.

On the other hand, the manufacturing and construction costs of nuclear plants are much higher than the corresponding costs for wind farms. The combined costs for the two energy sources are competitive; we can expect to see nuclear plants cost out cheaper in some locations and wind farms cheaper in others.

He wasn't lying. Please read the comments before reacting to them.

Any info on which type plant spreads the wealth (construction and maintenance costs) to a broader base of people? In our economy this is no small consideration, of course it can't be the only consideration either

So why are you being dishonest about my Rolex statement, even though it is the same: The Rolex has very low material costs as apparently nuclear power plant does according to your own statement:
PMike is estimating $30/KW for concrete and raw steel, or $30 million for a 1 GW plant
Apparently less than 0.3% of the nuclear power plant are material costs: http://www.thestar.com/article/665644

So obviously material costs are not relevant. If you wanted to discuss costs, why don't you compare decommissioning costs between wind and nuclear power? After all nuclear power plants are apparently at $1000 per kW and not just at $30 per kW? Wouldn't it be more pertinent to discuss the higher and thus more relevant costs?
http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=55119
And can the scrap metal of a nuclear power plant also be sold with a profit like the scrap metal from a windturbine can?

To say that this strikingly large project would take 10 times the materials as a nuclear power plant is quite reasonable.

Besides the fact that the material needs are compared to the other costs obviously not relevant and can be recycled and there's obviously no steel shortage. It's still not reasonable because you purposely ignore the rest that comes with a nuclear power plant:
Or do nuclear power plants not need any uranium mines?
Or do nuclear power plants not need any power distribution?
Or do nuclear power plants not need any enrichment facilities?
Or do nuclear power plants not need any chemical processing plants?
Or do nuclear power plants not need any ultimate repositories?
Or do nuclear power plants not need any water?

And without the tower a modern wind turbine is actually at 30 t per MW: http://www.vestas.com/Files/Filer/EN/Brochures/Vestas_V_90LOW.PDF

The tower can also be built out of wood and store carbon, which is obviously not an option with nuclear power plants:
http://www.timbertower.de/index.php?id=1&L=1

I can't tell what's going on here. For some reason you've decided to pick a completely unnecessary fight.

There are many things PMike could have chosen to discuss. He was addressing only one of many aspects of this subject. That's all he was claiming to address. To satisfy you he'd have to write a manuscript longer than the original four-part article, covering every aspect of energy cost, even the recycling of dismantled equipment. Failing to write such a manuscript, he shouldn't comment at all.

Your objection is way beyond unreasonable. Material costs certainly are relevant, as are all the topics you mentioned. What makes material costs relevant is their relatively high costs for alternatives such as wind and solar.

Limiting oneself to one topic at a time isn't lying.

I am not being dishonest about your Rolex statement. I did not say Rolexes only cost as much as the metal and jewels that go into them, nor did I say or imply that nuclear plants only cost as much as concrete and raw steel. I very clearly said the opposite. Not taking the trouble to read what people say does not give you the right to call them liars.

I think you are expected to say that
the Rolex statement (or the argument about it)
is a very nice clear argument and thank you for pointing this out!
followed by
``I will use it in the future or similar! "

In case I like the argument, it is a clever one!

thanks!

michael

Material costs certainly are relevant.

No, a cost share of 0.3% can clearly not be considered relevant and you know it.

Limiting oneself to one topic at a time isn't lying.

Actually, it is called lying by omission.

One lies by omission by omitting an important fact, deliberately leaving another person with a misconception. Lying by omission includes failures to correct pre-existing misconceptions. An example is when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service.

Not taking the trouble to read what people say does not give you the right to call them liars.

Actually besides the lie by omission you did indeed fail to proof that the material costs of a wind turbine are 10 times higher than of a nuclear power plant since you left out the material costs of uranium, the costs of materials for uranium mines, enrichment plants, chemical processing plants, ultimate repositories and gigantic water needs.

I give up. Dialoging with you is exactly the same as talking to a stump. You didn't read what I said before and repeating it won't do any good.

I'm not surprised. When people start to run out of arguments, they always come up with insults.

Don't forget the truss towers like they use in India which use far less steel then a conventional cones shaped tube tower which we use (because it has a lower nimby factor).

The USA tends toward pylon towers because they eliminate roosting spots for birds with the consequent bird kills.

Time to back up here a bit. First, a minor accounting point; that was me, not PMike, who pointed out the result (cited by David MacKay in his book) that the concrete, steel, and other material components in a nuclear plant are only about one tenth as much, on the basis of annual kilowatt-hours, of a modern wind turbine. I had prefaced that by saying one should not confuse "financial cost" with "energy cost".

PMike responded by pointing out Jeff Vail's analysis of EROEI, suggesting that financial cost was actually a good proxy for energy cost. I happen to disagree with that conclusion, but that's really a side issues that I didn't want to get into.

'anyone' read my statement as if I had said that nuclear plants were cheaper than wind turbines, and called me a liar. No problem, a lot of blog respondents are challenged in the area of reading comprehension skills. Completely spurious charges bother me not the least. (It's the ocassional ones that hit close to target that are painful.)

The example of the Rolex watch that he brings up is actually quite apt. However, it cuts directly opposite to the sense he had intended.

Nuclear opponents look at the cost of a rolex watch, and want to conclude that watches are totally impractical devices. They're toys for the idle rich, and the rest of us should just learn to make do with sundials. Others, including myself, look closely at what goes into making a Rolex and see the possibility of a Timex! There's nothing inherent in making a watch that says they have to cost several thousand dollars. A $10 watch that is perfectly servicable ought to be possible. By the same token, nuclear plants that are at least several times cheaper than the current norms ought to be possible. (And, oh, BTW, the Chinese seem well on their way to leaning to build them.)

Now, as to 'nobody's list of bright rhetorical questions:

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any uranium mines?"
Of course they do. Processing about one one-thousandth as much material as needed to support a coal-fired power plant.

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any power distribution?"
About the same as gas-fired power plants, less than for coal-fired plants, and much less than required for wind farms. (Nuclear plants, like gas-fired power plants, are ammenable to distributed siting close to load centers. Coal plants less so. Wind farms are normally far from load centers, and their intermittency makes the problem worse.

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any enrichment facilities?"
Down in the noise. A single plant has the capacity to supply all the needs of the US, and the energy to operate it is around 0.1% of the power its output will generate.

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any chemical processing plants?"
Are you talking about fuel reprocessing? We don't do that, but we should.

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any ultimate repositories?"
Not really. Dry cask storage until we build the fast reactors that can run on all that good "waste" material. (And eliminate the need for most uranium mining for the next two hundred years.)

"Or do nuclear power plants not need any water?"
About as much as coal-fired plants, for current designs. Future high temperature reactors will need substantially less, and can be adapted and modest cost to air-based cooling.

I'm not sure what this list of questions was supposed to establish. If it's that the high cost of nuclear plants (far above what their "bill of materials" sets as a bottom line) is somehow intrinsic, it failed. There are reasons for the high cost, but they lie more in the political arena and the workings of "Parkinson's law".

Others, including myself, look closely at what goes into making a Rolex and see the possibility of a Timex!

With the difference that the watch industry has developed a Timex in the last 50 years and the nuclear power industry failed to do so.
But nobody stops you. Go ahead and build your Timex-nuclear power plant.

I'm not sure what this list of questions was supposed to establish.

You need to compare all material costs if you compare wind with nuclear, if you really want to compare material costs even though they have little relevance. An empty nuclear power plant without uranium doesn't produce any electricity and is thus worthless. But apparently your friend isn't aware of this simple fact.

The difference is that Timex did not have legislative roadblocks to its R&D and sales thrown up by the Rolex lobby.

Dear EP,

may be you could try to take up a job
working in a little regulated nuclear radiation military lab
(from 30 years back) or
in some post Soviet Union places working with radioactive material.

Or better, in the clean up of the Harrisburg TMI reactor core.
Or perhaps clean up the Nevada testsites.
(i guess you are old enough .. so you will not suffer too much from
soft radiation damage causing cancer 20-30 years later. )

michael

" these nuclear ideas are all fine and well, but they require MASSIVE INVESTMENTS, and the last I checked, WE'RE BROKE! "

The U.S. spends 1,000,000,000,000 per year on energy alone. The world spends several times that. The money required to R&D every possibility is peanuts compared to the savings we will enjoy if we get the best solution.

yes the money put into research is "peanuts" compared to all the other expenses.

However, now the money is gone and not many objected against the spending for useless stuff

someone (you? and your dreams(?) ) have to pay for this now.

For what concerns me.. so far I am payed out of the research budget.
For how long? Until the state runs out of money I guess..

this could be sooner than I wish..

Michael

Your attitude is refreshing.

I only wish that much much more money, time, and rsources were spent pursuing 'foolish scientific pursuits'.

99% perspiration, 1% inspiration...finding 10,00 ways NOT to male a light bulb filament, in order to find the first way that works, and all that.

I am a huge proponent of evolving humanity to a lower level of stable population, and understanding and living within resource limits.

That does NOT mean I am anti-science or anti-technology development.

Being anti-growth and pro-technology development and pro knowledge-seeking are not contradictory desires.

We could eventually have a small enough population to fit within the World's resource sources and sinks constraints, and still pursue knowledge and love, and happiness pursuits which fail any EROEI analysis, and there are those of us who do not care a bit.

So the main objection to Shippingport is that the initial fuel was 98% U233, not the mix that's produced in the breeding cycle; to verify that you actually have a complete commercial cycle (with >1 breeding ratio), you need to start with bred fuel, and that, it appears, has not been demonstrated.

I fear you've fallen prey to Dittmar's misdirection.  Nuclear power is quite feasible TODAY with no breeders, period.  The cost of uranium is far too low to make breeding worthwhile for economic reasons.  The supply of thorium is sufficient to use in LWRs in a once-through cycle [1] for several times as long as the uranium supply lasts [2].

The failure of nuclear power to live up to its initial promises is not due to lack of funding or prowess on the part of engineers and physicists; it has to do with the inherent complexity in such endeavors.

The bulk of it has to do with politics.  Nothing required commercial nuclear R&D to stand still for 3 decades in the USA, it just became politically impossible for government to do it and economically impossible for industry to do it given that new markets were blocked by political interests.

It's not to say that nuclear engineering doesn't have a future; just not one powering society.

I think you're quite wrong about that.  Dr. David LeBlanc, who should have been given the honor of writing for TOD instead of Dittmar, has noted that the LFTR has the potential to turn thorium into electricity at the rate of about 0.8 tons per GW-yr.  The USA buried over 8000 tons of thorium nitrate (about 4000 tons of metallic Th) as waste, because the people in charge didn't know what else to do with it (the ORNL MSR teams having been silenced politically [4]).  At 0.8T/GW-yr, those 4000 tons of Th could replace more than 20 years of US electric generation from coal.

[1] A once-through cycle eliminates the cost and radiological hazard of recovering uranium containing U-232 [3] and fabricating new fuel rods from it.
[2] The abundance of thorium in earth's crust (~10 ppm) is about 4 times that of uranium (~2.5 ppm).
[3] Uranium could be removed from spent thorium fuel rods and the thorium re-used, if desired.  The uranium could be saved for a future generation of reactors requiring no fuel-rod fabrication, such as MSRs.
[4] Molten-salt reactors eliminate many issues of PWRs, including xenon poisoning and temperature coefficients.  The inherent safety threatened the PWR interests, including the reactor-operator jobs held by ex-Navy submarine crew and most of the nuclear services industry.  The ORNL people were told to shut up (relevant information on the Navy-derived management of the AEC and the effect it had on ORNL is here).

>Dr. David LeBlanc, who should have been given the honor of writing for TOD instead of Dittmar,

dear EP,

it will be my pleasure to read the replies from Dr. David LeBlanc.
It would be useful if more substantiated with hard facts from experiments
than this one for example.
http://www.slideshare.net/guestcee6b0/liquid-fluoride-reactors-a-new-beg...

but nevertheless, when you look at the "conclusions outlook" you find a list which agrees well with what
i wrote!

But, let me tell you something basics in science.

Science lives from confronting different views on topics not solved and critical thinking
on the proposed arguments.

What you are asking for, suppression of one view is anti science and anti freedom of speech!

But good that you express your worldview so nicely!

thanks for that.

michael

What I'm asking for (have been asking for for years, AAMOF) is the beginnings of peer-review to improve the quality of posts on TOD.  It would also prevent propaganda from being presented as fact, but I didn't think that needed special attention until your series showed up.

It is very interesting that you adjure me to look at LeBlanc's talk, when I have given his slideshow to an audience.  I'll just give you the conclusions from slide 68:

Conclusions
  • Molten Salt designs have inherent features that favor overall safety, waste reduction, low cost and rapid deployment
  • They also have great flexibility to match varying priorities
    • Can attain much higher levels of proliferation resistance compared to current offerings
    • Can run on minute amounts of thorium or modest amounts of uranium for the utmost in simplicity

FYI, the ore deposit at Lemhi Pass has a probable reserve of 1.8 million tons.  If this thorium was used to supply 70% of US electricity plus enough extra to replace petroleum transport fuel (roughly 4 trillion kWH/yr total) at 0.8 t/GW-yr, the thorium consumption would be about 370 tons/year and the Lemhi Pass deposit would run the country's grid and vehicles for ~4800 years.  The Egyptian pyramids are less than 4700 years old, so we are talking about the energy to run an industrial civilization continuously for roughly the length of time that civilization has existed on earth.

I'd say that's enough.  Three more generations should be able to take that and improve on it further.

yes right that was page 68!

but why did you fail to look at page 69-72?

(this says what is missing ..
like 15 years without hope of money return .. and this for something you claim to be perfectly understood!)

another proof that you are incapable to read documents to the very end!

and in fact your biased view
trying to hide this ..

thanks for documenting it so well!

michael

ps.. try to go for censorship
I hope you fail.

but why did you fail to look at page 69-72?

(this says what is missing ..
like 15 years without hope of money return .. and this for something you claim to be perfectly understood!)

Nuclear power was developed without any near-term hope of monetary return (it took more than 20 years).  So was grid-connected wind power.  If the industrial world is facing an electric power crisis, we are going to either take shortcuts around the elements of BAU which create such delays (the MSRE was built in just 5 years) or we will accept a long payback for the long-term benefits.

another proof that you are incapable to read documents to the very end!

I have been over the whole thing several times; those slides are simply not relevant.  I have noted the issue of "rice-bowl breaking" in this very discussion thread; the bulk of the nuclear-services industry would lose its ongoing revenue stream if either MSR or IFR technology became dominant, and this has political implications for R&D funding.  It takes a propagandist like you to take politics and create a resource shortage ex nihilo, though.

ps.. try to go for censorship

You are only censored in your delusions of adequacy; refusing to lend TOD's reputation to your propaganda is not an attack on you, it would have protected TOD (now damaged by association with your drivel).  This opinion is not confined to a few of your opponents.  Here are some appraisals from people who appear to be well-established readers (at least 2 years membership) who have read your "work", in this thread alone:

"These conclusions read more like opinion being sold rather than conclusions flowing logically from carefully crafted arguments based on hard science and engineering. This is an anti-nuclear propaganda hit piece..."

"Not sure why you 'admire' Dittmar's work (I would not add the 'Dr' bit, there is no way scholarship this poor would ever get a PHD), since he is plainly working to a presupposed agenda and refusing to take correction."

BTW, your comments about Fermilab have received a certain amount of negative press.  It looks like you can dish out criticism, but you can't take it.

Maybe this is trolling, but how can the industry call generation III safe if there is a need for a core catcher? And how can they be sure that a core melt down will successfully be catched, or that no significant amounts of reactor fuel will be released into the environment?

Also, are generation III reactors like the French PWR really generation III or are they more like a generation II+? They sound like they are generation II+ anyway as they have so much in common with just a few modifications (like the core catcher). And what does that say about the safety of the 300+ generation II installations, even if today they have a few thousand major-accident-free running years combined?

While the so called III generation is not the main topic of my article (it was more for the other 3).

But in case it might be interesting to know that the safety commissions
from France/ Finland and the UK just made a strong statement last week saying essentially that

the french EPR safety concept is flawed and unacceptable.

this is especially important as the French one so far never ever had any problems with French "know how".

AREVA answered right away that they will modify.
But it seems that they lost a big amount on the stock market and
that the project in Finland is so much behind that might almost kill the company.

In any case the missing uranium fuel problem can not be solved with the EPR and alike

thus any company and country must be kind of cheated about uranium resources
(like potential buyers of big cars about peak oil).

michael

If I have understood the critique right were the problem insufficient separation between computerized control systems that need to be independant of each other to provide redundancy.

It sounds like the common mistake of making computereized systems overly complex and feature rich.

" While the so called III generation is not the main topic of my article (it was more for the other 3). "

Why is that? Your uranium piece claimed there will be problems in the very short term. Your reactor piece claims long term problems with Gen IV reactors, but the next reactors actually built will be Gen III. Why have you skipped them? They are the ones under consideration for construction now.

I didn't skip Gen III reactors!

I wrote on the EPR and other "new" old types.

The project in Finland turns out to be a disaster for AREVA Siemens (Siemens left the sinking Titanic)
and latest news say that the EPR system is flawed.

The only one looking "good" and for an acceptable price right now seems to be the Russian version!

but do you think that everything what the Russians say is true?

Didn't they have the safest reactors before 1986?

By the way the british reactors are of very similar Chernobyl type
now all old and soon to be retired

very few people with a little expertise in nuclear energy consider them as ``safe"

but for what it matters

lets accept the Chinese and Indian scientists will finally come up with the wonder reactors!
when.. after 2020

michael

The lesson EPR gives me is that building nuclear powerplants has a learning curve.
You can only build them fast when the suppliers and workforce is fully trained and
the design is compete.

AREVA and Siemens obviously sold the project with the expectation of being able
to deliver as they did with their earlier reactors. But those were the last ones
of a continous build and the competence witherd during the hiatus.

Its good that the EPR is being built in Finland where they take nuclear security
very seriously. The smart next step after these problems and cost overruns is to
take care about learning lessons on every level and then build more EPR:s version
1.1 with a better building process and get lower building costs.

There is nothing scary about the modern Russian PWR:s.
But I would verifie ever single step of the design and production process if I
were a reactor customer, but that is a good idea for a multi billion affair
regardless if it is nuclear and who the supplier is.

I disagree. From a business politics point of view it is much more likely that they *had* to knowingly sell the reactor way below expected real cost because they finally had a chance to make an end on 20 years no reactor building and could not afford to loose the opportunity. It happens all the time that businesses sell a first project below real price expecting to gain profits later on because of 'opened doors'. TVO/Finnish politicians/Finnish public would not have bought one if the contract would note a more realistic price, which is probably also why the Finns wanted a fixed price contract in the first place.

The part I find stupid is promising a build time about as short as the best they had a generation ago. I agree with the logic of giving your first customer a large rebate and a fixed price contract but why set a short deadline?

The deadline must be short because otherwise cost would get higher. It's not like it's very easy to slow down construction, be thoughtful of it, train your employees better, and not see an huge increase in price. I think this is why they started a race towards the finish (haha) only to discover they didn't enter a 100m sprint, but 400 m hurdles race.

I agree every new system has a learning curve of many many years

if it took 30 years to construct safe Gen II PWR's and we have a long learning curve for an EPR and similar ahead of us
it confirms what I wrote in Chapter I ..

the old reactors will be terminated before we have learned to rebuild Gen III reactors.

This means at least 30 years for designing a prototype Gen IV and with another 20 year learning curve
well in 50 years from now we start to compensate for the missing oil, gas and coal?

convincing indeed!

michael

Areva is well into the learning curve for building EPR:s. The next one should be significantly faster and then they can continue to scale up. I expect it to take a decade, not decades and we are will into the decade.

Large parts of the future nuclear industry is learing the trade by renewing the old generation 2 plants, those projects are good for transfering knowledge to a new generation of workers.

30 years is way to long for designing a generation four prototype. They need to be done in parallell in mutibpel types and fast enough for new projects to learn from the succeses and failures. Think five year projects and flexible reserach reactors where you set up experiments on a monthly schedule.

The is exactly the same kind of thinking as the one we need for other power sources and ideas for attaining better efficiency. No 30 year projects to design the ultimate car! Do it in a parallell process.

The only one looking "good" and for an acceptable price right now seems to be the Russian version!

Really?

The consortium offered 21.16 (Euro) cents kWh for the construction and management of nuclear power plant.

http://www.turkeyfinancial.com/news/2009/01/19/russian-turkish-consortiu...

Pretty costly for a plant that doesn't do load following and as opposed to a PV system on ones roof has to compete with wholesale electricity prices.

ok,

i guess I should have said

not even the russian ..

(but may be I was ironic enough no?)

michael

The name of the game is engineered safety. Any system can fail, even with ridiculously small probability, so you integrate three independent systems, and then add something to prevent radioactive release even if all the 3 systems fail simultaneously.

In principle you could call Gen III as Gen II+, and I guess the Gen III+ would be Gen II++ :)

However the terminology in use evolved differently. Gen III designs are evolutions of proven Gen II designs:
• Enhanced safety & reliability:
• Simplified design
• Lower core melt probability
• Less off-site impact in severe accident scenarios
• Competative:
• Standardised design
• High burn-up
• High availability
• Long design life
• Short erection time
Gen III reactors are already built or ready to be built.

Characteristics Gen III+
• Gen III+ designs are evolutions of Gen III designs
• Generally with some innovative safety features
• More inherent and/or passive safety features
• No off-site impact in severe accident scenarios

http://www.nrg.eu/docs/kivi/2008/20080523/20080523-presentation-jan.van....

Dr. Dittmar (and others), at Brave New Climate, a reputable science blog by Australian climate scientist Barry Brook, there are a lot of (convincing IMO)pieces on GenIV nuclear reactors and especially the Integral Fast Reactor: http://bravenewclimate.com/integral-fast-reactor-ifr-nuclear-power/

One excerpt:

"It seems like something that only a crazed conspiracy theorist would come up with. A source of carbon-free energy that holds the potential to provide base load power for the planet for thousands of years hence, and which could be built along the existing transmission grid and even be housed within retrofitted coal-fired power stations. A process that could eat existing nuclear waste instead of needing to store it in highly secure vaults such as Yucca Mountain for hundreds of millennia. A technology that enjoyed large investments in R&D by government, only to have the funding zeroed for political reasons when close to large-scale demonstration — and then the scientists involved told not to publicise this fact. Well that, in caricature, is the basic story of Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) nuclear power."

http://bravenewclimate.com/2008/12/13/integral-fast-reactor-ifr-nuclear-...

Does this technology hold any merit?

Yes,indeed, Neven. We have several proven technologies which can get coal out of the picture fairly quickly if the resources are devoted to that end.

Those technologies in descending order of base load capability are nuclear,geothermal,solar thermal,Solar PV and wind.

Let's just get on with it and quit arguing about the old "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" thing - Time is running out.

But the argument isn't about 'Angels on the head of a pin', Thirra.

Clear objections to Fission's future are being offered.. so a handwave of irritation doesn't really take them on.

Seems like thirra isn't far off base. There are issues with nuclear fission in the more distant future (>60 years). It's not that those issues don't exist. It's just that there are much more pressing problems. It is clear that there is plenty of Uranium to last until after we need to be mostly off fossil fuels which is what, maybe 10-50 years? At the moment, the solution has to be to build nuclear power plants and at the same time invest in as much renewable power as we can. If we had started with taxes on fossil fuels a decade or three ago, this could have worked pretty well. At the moment, we have to hope that we can adjust quickly. I don't see how to get off fossil fuels while not starting wars that send us back to the dark ages without fission as a significant part of the short term solution. In the longer term we'll see whether breeder reactors or recovery or Uranium from the ocean or new geologic discoveries keep nuclear competative. It is just impossible to predict technology many decades into the future. Worrying about whether breeder reactors are going to allow us to keep using nuclear power in 2070 seems like arguing about the number of angels on the head of a pin to me when peak oil and global climate change are staring us in the face.

ganv, this may well be the most intelligent and reasonable comment on this page. Thanks for making it.

And even more stupid is the refusal to follow up on the Molten Salt Thorium reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten-Salt_Reactor_Experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor

It worked, has many advantage over solid core pressurized reactors, like no Xenon poisoning, higher temps for higher efficiency, can much more rapidly adjust power since there are no thick walled sections of metal to avoid fatigue, it burns up waste from other reactors, Thorium is more abundant than Uranium, etc.

Politics!

I'm guessing the big boiler/turbine companies were/are managed by people who understand water and steam, and went "huh?" when told about molten salt and high temperature gas turbines.

I think fission could play a bigger role, but the industry is so insane with politics that it's choking on itself.
Case in point is Three Mile Island - IIRC (my copy of the accident report is in storage), the instrument air (used to control valves and sensors) was cross connected from shop air (used for tools and in this case to "fluff" water treating beads that were packed too tight into the water treatment tanks). The utility was too cheap to buy another instrument air compressor - a couple thousand dollars. The industry's lawyers had cowed the regulators into accepting as limited a definition of "safety critical system" as possible. So, the original report notes that on several occasions water got into the shop air system and thence into the instrument air system and had caused problems. Since they were doing some bead fluffing and water transfer with shop air just prior to the start of the accident, it is most likely that the valve in the secondary loop (air operated) that failed, causing the condensate pumps to fail and the condenser vacuum to be lost, causing the turbine to trip offline (and the reactor to shutdown), causing a high heat load in the reactor, exacerbated by the closing of some valves isolating auxiliary cooling pumps (a violation of NRC regulations), causing high pressures, which activated the pilot operated relief valve, which did not close properly (and the manufacturer failed to notify reactor operators of the known potential problem), which resulted in loss of primary coolant loop water, which uncovered the core, which led to a partial meltdown, which led to hydrogen evolution from too hot zirconium alloys, which led to a hydrogen explosion that came very close to the design level of the containment building - was all caused by the utility being too cheap to buy another instrument air compressor.

It seems to me that the nuclear industry (and many other incumbents: GM and coal burning power come to mind), would rather justify and rationalize than be rationally safe.
They knew they had water issues in their instrument air, yet management did not take a cheap and effective action: buy more instrument air compressor and ban the practice of cross connection.
Even though most people probably don't get the technical gist of this, I think they "smell a rat" and don't trust the nuclear industry, and that lack of trust in not undeserved.
Suspicion and victimism is bred on both sides, and little constructive is getting done.
I wonder if I could get anybody in the nuclear industry to agree that spending a couple of thousand dollars on squeaky clean instrument air would have been a good investment (defense in depth) vs. the billion dollars it cost to clean up Three Mile Island.

I wonder if I could get anybody in the nuclear industry to agree that spending a couple of thousand dollars on squeaky clean instrument air would have been a good investment (defense in depth) vs. the billion dollars it cost to clean up Three Mile Island.

In hindsight: ofcourse you would. But unfortunately they cannot predict which defence-in-depth-investments would be needed as they don't know which accidents will happen. So they will rationalize these investments away for the benefit of higher profit (or even sales of a reactor to a commercial energy business). Spending in a commercial nuclear power setting will be largely driven by commercial thinking, not pure science. Maybe that's one of the reasons it might not be such a good idea.

Long time TOD reader, very first post here tho :)
Hopefully that article about EIA's admitting stuff will make at least some ripples through MSM. However, even most of the supposed-to-be-more-knowledgeable people at financial blogs, like Zerohedge - come right after that with "abiotic oil, man" or "10,5 trillion $ of additional investment? Nothing but the oil lobby at work!"
Back to the topic, anyone heard about "THE AXISYMMETRIC TANDEM MIRROR" design? An extract from
"Thoughts on Fusion Energy Development After a Six-Decades-Long Love Affair by Richard F. Post" :

"A Better Bet: The Fusion ATM
Are there better, faster-to-develop, approaches to magnetic fusion than the tokamak? Yes, there are! As an example, I
would cite the recent findings of a Department of Energysponsored committee that is taking a new look at open-ended
systems, in particular at new forms of the tandem mirror that we call ATMs (for Axisymmetric Tandem Mirror, not for
machines for getting money—yet). The committee is chaired by a former Lab employee and mirror group leader Tom Simonen
(who is doing a great job). Its members include several Lab employees and retirees, plus researchers from other labs,
including MIT, Princeton, the University of Texas, and Los Alamos. We are now writing the final report. It concludes that the open-ended ATM represents a simpler, and easier-to-engineer, approach to magnetic fusion than ITER, since it is modular in nature and, being axisymmetric, it employs only simple circular coils to create its confining magnetic fields"

Full article here:
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles_2009/Summer-2009/Thoughts...

For the link about a fast track fusion reactor

I would say "nice pictures" do not compensate for missing facts.

neither the real problems with ITER and other plasma devices are mentioned
nor are there any serious references given!

anyway here is an article about this already from 1979 (30 years back) and nothing
absolutely nothing came out of it!

http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v43/i18/p1318_1

brings me back to the fusion emperor has no clothes story!

michael

And for how long did men dream of flying and build non-viable contraptions before the Wright Brothers finally took flight? I don't think we're close to viable fusion power, either, and there are much better currently viable bridging technologies we should aggressive pursue. But does this mean we should abandon all research forever?

As others have already noted, there are far *worse* activities we could be (and are) "wasting" our money and resources on.

FWIW, you can color me as skeptical as Dr. Dittmar regarding the prospects for the mainstream approaches to magnetic confinement fusion. That includes the old work on the mirror configuration, though I don't know anything about "new forms of the tandem mirror" that Tom Simonen is reportedly proposing.

In my senior year of a physics and math curriculum, in 1966 - 67, I was casting about for what to study in graduate school. I thought fusion energy would be an interesting field, so I did some independent study in that area. I fairly quickly concluded that there was no prospec