The Future of Nuclear Energy: Facts and Fiction - Part I: Nuclear Fission Energy Today

This is a guest post by Dr. Michael Dittmar. Dr. Dittmar is a researcher with the Institute of Particle Physics of ETH Zurich, and he also works at CERN in Geneva.

Nuclear fission energy is considered anywhere between the holy grail, that can solve all energy worries of the human industrialized civilization, and a fast path di­rectly to hell. Discussions about future energy sources and the possible contribution from nuclear energy are often tainted and dominated by irrational expectations and fears. As a consequence, very little actual knowledge is available to the general public and even to decision makers about the contribution of nuclear energy today, about uranium supplies, uranium resources, and current and future technological challenges and limitations.

This analysis about nuclear energy and its future contribution attempts to shed some light on the nuclear reality and its limitations. The report, presented in four parts, is based on data provided in documents made available by the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency), the NEA (Nuclear Energy Agency of OECD countries), the WNA (World Nuclear Association), and the IEA (International Energy Agency).

Part I summarizes the state of the world wide nuclear fission energy today and its perspectives for the next 10 years; Part II presents the situation concerning secondary uranium and plutonium resources; Part III analyses the "known" uranium resource data as presented within the past editions of the IAEA/NEA Red Book; Part IV finally outlines the plans and prospects for the long term future of nuclear fission and fusion.

Introduction

Most people today agree that a comfortable way of life depends on the avail­ability of cheap energy with its almost limitless applications. The average per capita energy consumption in the developed world increased by a factor of three or more during the past 50 years. However at most one billion people, or 1/7 of the human population of today, enjoy this increase. They live mainly in the richer countries and use on average approximately 50,000 kWh of thermal energy from various sources per year. This is three times higher than the world average consumption, roughly five times higher than the average per person energy use in China, and about 10 times larger than in India [1].

Depending slightly on the counting procedure, roughly 85% of this energy comes from fossil energy sources: about 40% from oil, 20% from natural gas and 25% from coal. Our mobility depends to almost 100% on oil. Electric energy, made from various "fuels," has the highest value for stationary applications and forms a basis for essentially all hi-tech and luxury energy applications. On a world-wide scale, electric energy accounts for 16% of the end energy use and between 20-25% in most of the rich countries. About 70% of the electric energy is again made from fossil fuels, about 16% from hydropower, and only 14% from nuclear fission energy. The renewable wind, solar, and geothermal energy sources, with some minor local exceptions, contribute no more than 1-2% to the energy mix [2].

These numbers demonstrate that electric energy, especially the part of it that is made from nuclear energy and renewable energy sources, contributes only little to the total world energy mix. In contrast, one obtains a totally distorted picture of their importance when one follows the media coverage and the political discussions at all levels about the pros and cons of nuclear fission power, hydropower, wind power, geothermal, and direct and indirect solar energy sources. For Switzerland, an interesting example of a small, densely populated and rich industrialized country, one finds that electric energy contributes to roughly 24% of the final energy mix. Electric energy is produced almost exclusively from hydropower (≈ 60%), and nuclear fission power (≈ 40%) [3]. Consequently, the two big and three old and smaller nuclear power plants contribute only 10% to the Swiss energy mix.

Similar basic energy numbers can be found on the Internet at the IEA website [4] and at many other websites. As fossil fuel resources, and especially oil and gas, are not renewable, it is obvious that the world-wide energy mix of today is totally unsustainable.

While it is generally accepted that fossil fuels will not last forever, the energy situation is mainly discussed in relation to its effects on global warming. This is reflected in various high-level meetings, where climate change and other side effects of our energy use are on the agenda of world-wide policy makers. Even though the recent price explosions for crude oil have resulted in some policy changes, the serious consequences of limited oil and gas resources are rarely discussed. If addressed at all, one finds that they are discussed under the more ambiguous heading of "energy security."

Perhaps disillusioned by the official politically correct main stream arguments, many people have started to investigate the resource limitations, often under the title "peak oil and gas" and "peak everything." These problems and the need to react are now discussed at many levels, and plenty of details can be found at web sites such as the "oil drum," the "energy bulletin," and many others [5]. Those who have accepted that the situation with our use of fossil fuels is unsustainable suggest and support, in order to prevent wars, chaos, and collapse, mostly a mixture of the following three sometimes orthogonal evolutionary directions:

  • the nuclear energy option;
  • the all renewable energy option, based dominantly on the transformation of solar and wind energy;
  • the energy reduction option, which stands for some efficiency improvements combined with an overall coordinated reduction of consumerism. Consequently, economic activities will slow down and "we" all will have to live simpler, perhaps still satisfying, lifestyles.

In this report, we shed some light on the nuclear energy option and its limitations. This analysis is split into four parts: (I) the nuclear reality of today and its short term perspectives; (II) the situation concerning secondary uranium resources; (III) the existing data about "known" exploitable uranium resources; and (IV) status and perspectives of fast breeder reactors (fourth generation reactors) and why commercial fusion reactors will always be 50 years away.

We believe that a comprehensive discussion of nuclear energy must also address problems related to (1) the real and imagined dangers of nuclear energy relative to other energy forms; (2) nuclear weapon proliferation, and (3) the accumulated nuclear waste. Yet in this series of articles, we shall not enter into any details concerning these important issues and instead refer the interested reader to the extensive literature dealing with them [6].

In this first article, nuclear energy and its place in today's world energy mix are reviewed. As significant new constructions in the nuclear power cycle, including uranium mines, enrichment facilities, and power plants, require at least a 5-10 year construction time, the maximum possible contribution of the nuclear power sector up until almost 2020 is already known and presented in this report.

It should become clear from the facts presented in the following sections of this article that the nuclear energy situation is far from being in the often claimed "nuclear renaissance phase." In fact, even without considering the impact of the 2008/9 world financial chaos, it seems already now very difficult to stop the slow nuclear phase-out, with an annual decrease of about 1%, that has been observed during the past few years.

Energy from nuclear fission: past, present and the next 10 years

Humanity began to understand the laws of physics that describe nuclear energy with its enormous energy density about 100 years ago, when a new form of very energetic radiation from heavy elements, like uranium, was discovered. It became quickly evident that many appli­cations were waiting to be discovered and used. Among them, we learnt to build the "final weapon of mass destruction" and found a way to produce commercial energy from nuclear fission.

In 1938, O. Hahn and F. Strassner studied the neutron bombardment of uranium observing some lighter elements. Within weeks, L. Meitner and O. Frisch could explain the reaction as the fission of uranium atoms into two lighter atoms. Today we know that, on average, 2-3 neutrons and a large amount of energy are liberated in this reaction. This observation opened the road to a controlled chain reaction using the neutrons emitted from one fission reaction to fission further uranium atoms. Such a chain reaction with a power of 2 Watt was first achieved by E. Fermi and his team in 1942. Only three years later, the world saw the explosions of two fission bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki that killed 150,000 people instantaneously.

The civilian use of nuclear fission energy, i.e., the nuclear energy age, began during the 1950s with the hope that this would lead mankind to an almost unlimited future energy supply. This idea came from the fact that the fission of 1 kg of uranium liberates about the same amount of energy as 1,000,000 kg of coal. Even if only the U235 component of natural uranium, which contains the two isotopes U238 (99.29%) and U235 (0.71%), can be used, one still finds that 1 kg of natural uranium contains energy equivalent of more than 10,000 kg of coal. Thus even a "useless" rock, containing perhaps only 0.01% of uranium, i.e., 0.1 kg of uranium per ton, could in theory liberate more energy than 1 kg of coal.

The necessary chain reaction to liberate nuclear fission energy is known to be possible if, on average, more than one neutron is emitted for every fission reaction. This is essentially possible only with two uranium isotopes, U235 and U233, and with the plutonium isotope Pu239, where, on average, 2-3 neutrons are emitted per fission reaction. Among them, only U235 exists naturally in sizable quantities.

The fission of these heavy elements is induced usually by a bombardment with moderated (slowed down) neutrons. If these extra neutrons are used efficiently for new fission reactions, a chain reaction, either controlled (in a reactor) or uncontrolled (in a bomb) can be started. As only one neutron is required to keep the controlled chain reaction going, the other neutrons can be used to transform the non-fissionable U238 and Thorium 232 isotopes under neutron absorption and subsequent decays into the fissionable isotopes Pu239 and U233. This neutron absorption process can be used to breed (produce) fissionable material. Already in the existing reactors, often called "once through" reactors, up to 1/3 of the produced power comes from the fission of Pu239 produced from the above U238 transformation.

A more complicated technological challenge poses the Fast Breeder Reactor (FBR). This reactor is operated in a chain reaction mode using the prompt energetic (fast) fission neutrons. The­oretically, the amount of fissionable material can be increased with fast breeders by a large factor. So far, prototype commercial FBRs were not a great success for energy production [7]. More details can be found in the "Generation IV" nuclear power plant road map [8]. In this document, written by scientists from all larger nuclear energy countries, it is stated that at least 20 years of intense research and development are required before the breeder option can be considered as a real alternative to the existing standard nuclear reactors. More details about the status and prospects of FBRs will be presented in the fourth and final article in this series.

Nuclear fission power today

Today, about 30 countries on our planet operate commercial nuclear fission power plants. Dur­ing 2008, these power plants provided together 2601 TWhe [9]. "TWh" stands for Terra Watt hours or 1012 Wh and "e" stands for electric energy. The power of a standard nuclear power plant is usually given in units of GW or 109 W. If a 1 GW reactor is operated with 85% efficiency over one year, about 7.5 TWhe of electricity are produced.

The amount of nuclear electricity produced in 2008 is 2.1% below that of the record year 2006 where all nuclear power plants together produced 2658 TWhe. As a consequence of the ever increasing electric energy demand, the contribution from nuclear fission energy to the total amount of produced electric energy has decreased from 18% in 1993 to 14% in 2008. Roughly 16% of the world energy end use comes from electric energy [2]. Multiplying 14% by 16%, one finds that nuclear energy contributes now less than 2.5% to the world's end energy mix.

The true nuclear energy contribution is about three times smaller than the percentage stated in most reviews of the world energy situation. The IEA and other agencies convert various sources of energy into a so-called "primary energy equivalent." In order to do so, the produced thermal energy is used for the statistics, and nuclear electric energy is multiplied roughly by a factor of three.

However, this approach is somewhat misleading as it is unclear how hydropower, where no thermal waste heat is produced, should be used in comparison. Furthermore, hydropower and gas-fired power plants provide electric energy on demand. In contrast, an efficient operation of nuclear power plants requires their operation with little interruptions at 100% capacity. As a result, nuclear power plants produce the so-called base load for the electric grid, whereas hydro and gas-fired power plants are used to satisfy peak load needs.

A fairer comparison would thus give the electric energy produced from hydropower a much higher quality factor than the one from nuclear fission power. Another problem with the primary energy accounting is related to the efficiency of nuclear power plants, which, on average, have a thermal-to-electric energy conversion factor of 33%, much lower than modern fossil fuel power plants, where efficiency factors of 50% and more can be reached. In addition, the waste heat from nuclear power plants is of lower temperature than that from gas-fired power plants. Consequently, the usage of waste heat from today's nuclear power plants is much less efficient and therefore essentially wasted to the environment. We thus find it more logical to measure the contribution from nuclear fission energy to the world end energy mix.

According to the IAEA database [10], nuclear electric energy comes currently from 436 nuclear fission reactors with an electric power capacity of about 370 GWe. The average age of these reactors is already about 25 years, and 130 reactors with a capacity of more than 90 GWe have an age between 30 and 40 years. A large fraction of those reactors will probably be decommissioned during the coming 5 to 10 years. The two oldest relatively small commercial reactors of 0.217 GWe each, have an age of 41 and 42 years and are expected to be shut down by the end of 2010 [11].

In contrast to the often repeated statement that the world is in a phase of a "nuclear renaissance," the data show a very different picture. Since the beginning of 2008, one reactor in Slovakia and two of the older reactors in Japan were shut down permanently, whereas not a single new reactor was completed. In fact, the year 2008 marks the first year since 1968, when not a single new reactor was connected to the electric grid. During the past 10-15 years, about 3-5 new nuclear power plants per year were connected to the electric grid on average, and an equivalent number of smaller and older reactors were decommissioned.

Pursuant to the IAEA data base [10], 48 reactors are currently under construction, and according to the WNA data base, roughly 10 reactors per year will be completed, on average, during the coming 5-10 years [12]. While the connection of about 10 reactors per year would indicate a substantial increase compared to the past 15 years, this number is far lower than 25 years ago, when 33 new nuclear reactors were started up each year.

If one assumes a normal reactor construction time of 5-10 years, one could imagine that all these 48 reactors might be operational between 2015 to 2020. If they can be operated as efficiently as the existing reactors, these new nuclear power plants will contribute at most about 300 TWhe per year of additional electric energy, resulting for the years 2015-2020 in a total nuclear energy production of no more than 2900 TWhe.

However, if one takes the average retirement age for the so far closed 122 reactors as a guideline, one can expect that up to 100 older smaller reactors will be decommissioned during the next 10 years. Combining these two pieces of information, it seems rather unlikely that even a net increase of the world-wide fission-produced electric energy is possible by 2015. In contrast, if one uses the annual decline of almost 1% observed during the last years as a base, a production of 2350 TWhe may be expected for the year 2015.

Consequently, one can predict for 2015, ignoring other limiting factors, that the total contribution from nuclear power plants will remain at best close to the current level.

Those interested in following the nuclear evolution during the coming months and years can compare the planned and real start-up dates summarized in a recent WNA reference document [12]. According to this WNA data base, it is planned that 7 and 8 new reactors will be connected to the grid during the remaining months of 2009 and 2010, respectively. It seems that at least the 2009 expectations are already now highly unrealistic.

Requirements of natural uranium equivalent

In the previous section, we have presented how the long construction times for new nuclear power plants and the existing age structure of nuclear power plants constrain the evolution of nuclear power during the next 5-10 years. We will now investigate the nuclear fuel supply situation.

Current nuclear reactors have, for several reasons, a relatively low thermal efficiency of about 33%. To operate a 1 GWe power plant, one finds that U235 or Pu239 isotopes have to be fissioned at a rate of roughly 1020 fissions/sec (about 0.05 grams/second). Knowing that the U235 isotope makes up only 0.71% of natural uranium, one finds that about 6.5 gram of natural uranium equivalent are required per second to operate a 1 GWe nuclear reactor. Multiplying this amount with the number of seconds per year, one finds that 170 tons of natural uranium equivalent per year are needed to operate a 1 GWe power plant. Therefore, about 65,000 tons of natural uranium equivalent per year are needed to operate the existing 370 GWe nuclear capacity. It is generally believed that (1) this amount of uranium can easily be obtained from the existing mines combined with secondary resources; (2) it will be easy to extract a sufficient amount of uranium from new mines in the near future; and (3) no nuclear fuel shortages should be expected for the coming years.

However as will be shown below and in Part II of this review, the situation with uranium extraction from the known mines and with the secondary resources during the coming 5-10 years appears to be much more critical than generally believed. Before we present these data, a few more details about the usage of nuclear fuel might be helpful to understand the current uranium supply situation and how it will constrain the evolution of nuclear power during the coming 5-10 years.

Nuclear reactors produce energy from the fission of either uranium U235 or plutonium Pu239, which is one of the secondary sources of nuclear fuel. To simplify the discussion, we always use the natural uranium equivalent in the following. As has been explained above, the amount of fissile material required to operate a 1 GWe nuclear power plant for one year, e.g. assuming one annual refilling, is about 165-180 tons of natural uranium equivalent per year. In practice, the normal operation of most reactors requires a few weeks of annual shutdown in order to replace about 1/4 of the used up uranium fuel rods. Fresh reactor fuel rods contain a mixture of the fissile isotopes U235 or Pu239 component enriched to 3-4% and U238. During the few years of operation, the U235 content will be reduced to roughly 1%. At the same time due to neutron capture and subsequent β decays, some U238 is transformed into Pu239. During the reactor operation, Pu239 increases to something close to 1% and contributes on average up to 30% of the produced fission energy. Once the concentration of fissionable material in the fuel rods is reduced well below 2%, new fuel rods are usually required. The first uranium load, which brings a new 1 GWe reactor to nominal power, is about 500 tons of natural uranium equivalent.

Some important statistics about nuclear power plants in different countries, their electric energy production in 2007, and the corresponding uranium requirements, extracted from the Red Book data base of the IAEA and the NEA [14] and from the WNA [13], are summarized below.

The second column gives the number of reactors per country and in parantheses the corresponding electric power. The third column gives the total amount of electric energy produced in 2007. The number in parantheses indicates the average number of TWh produced per installed GWe power, which is an indication of how efficiently the nuclear power plants were operated in 2007. A non-negligible number of reactors is always on some kind of long-term technical shut-down. A typical example is the result of the 2007 earthquake in Japan, where some 8 GWe nuclear power plants were damaged and operation has not resumed yet after two years. The number in the fourth column shows the natural uranium equivalent requirements for 2008. The number in parantheses gives the average uranium requirements per GWe installed power for the world and the different countries.

Since about 15 years, only about 2/3 of the annual uranium requirements, i.e., between 31,000 and 44,000 tons, are extracted from the world-wide mining industry. This quantity is much smaller than the mining capacity, which for example in 2007 was, according to the Red Book, 54,000-57,000 tons [15].

The difference between the required and the extracted uranium in 2007 was about 23,000 tons. This is about the same amount as extracted by the three largest uranium producing countries, Canada, Australia, and Kazakhstan, together. The missing amount of fissile material is currently satisfied with secondary resources. These are the civilian and military stocks of uranium and plutonium that were accumu­lated during the cold war and the so called MOX, a mixture of U235 and plutonium recycled in an expensive and technically challenging process from the used fuel rods. The tails left over from the U235 enrichment process still contain some 0.2-0.3% of U235 and are another potential source of U235. In Part II, we shall present some publicly available data on secondary resources, which provide some quantitative explanations for the alarming situation expressed (highlighted by the author) in the IAEA and NEA press declaration of June 3, 2008 [16] about the new 2007 edition of the Red Book:

At the end of 2006, world uranium production (39,603 tons) provided about 60% of world reactor requirements (66,500 tons) for the 435 commercial nuclear reactors in operation. The gap between production and requirements was made up by secondary sources drawn from government and commercial inventories (such as the dismantling of over 12,000 nuclear warheads and the re-enrichment of uranium tails). Most secondary resources are now in decline and the gap will increasingly need to be closed by new production. Given the long lead time typically required to bring new resources into production, uranium supply shortfalls could develop if production facilities are not implemented in a timely manner.

Uranium extraction, past and present

In order to understand today's uranium supply situation, it is interesting to note that many formerly rich uranium mines, especially in large uranium consuming countries, closed many years ago. This closure has happened despite that (1) the claimed goal is energy independence, and (2) uranium explorations make only minor contributions to the electricity price. Reality shows that these countries are now largely dependent on uranium imports from other countries.

Today, the ten largest uranium consumers are the United States, France, Japan, Russia, Germany, Korea (South), UK, Ukraine, Canada, and Sweden. These countries consume about 84% of the uranium needed world wide or roughly 54,000 tons of the natural uranium equivalent. This number can be compared with the uranium extracted world wide. The latest numbers from the WNA indicate that 43,930 tons of uranium were extracted in 2008 [17]. The corresponding data from the WNA and the Red Book for the previous years are 41,279 tons in 2007, 39,429 tons in 2006 and 41,702 in 2005. Somewhat remarkable is the fact that the achieved numbers are usually at least one thousand tons smaller than the short term production forecast for the next year.

Only 4 of the above 10 countries, Canada, Russia, USA, and Ukraine, are still extracting uranium in sizable quantities. Out of these four countries, only Canada, which extracted 9476 tons in 2007, produces a large amount of uranium directly for export. It is interesting to note that the existing mines in Canada seem to be in a steep decline, while upgrades and new mines are unable to compensate for this decline. During the years 2002-2005, the Canadian mines produced, on average, more than 11,000 tons per year. Since then, production fell by 5% and more per year, and only 9000 tons were produced in 2008.

The uranium mines in the above 10 largest uranium consumer countries produce only about 28% of their uranium needs, i.e., 15,400 tons in 2007 and 14,751 tons in 2008. If the two uranium exporting countries in this list are not taken into account, the remaining eight countries need to import about 95% of their requirements. For the European countries, the uranium import dependence is now almost 100% and as such much larger than their relative dependence on oil and gas imports.

The table below shows some important numbers about nuclear fission energy and present and past uranium production for the entire world and for different countries as given in the Red Book 2007 [14] and the WNA data base [18].

As can be seen, (East) Germany and France have essentially stopped uranium mining, even though they used to extract large amounts of uranium from within their territory. Finally, Japan, the UK, South-Korea, and Sweden never had any substantial uranium mining of their own.

For the largest uranium consumer country, the United States, the situation is even more amazing. The internal uranium production declined from a peak of 17,000 tons per year around 1980 to a production of 1654 tons in 2007 and 1430 tons in 2008. Last year's amount does not even allow to operate 10% of their nuclear power plants. More interesting questions should come up when one considers that currently about 50% of the nuclear reactors in the USA are operated with excess military uranium stockpiles from Russia. As the bilateral contract between the USA and Russia ends in 2013 and as Russia has currently very ambitious plans to enlarge their own nuclear energy sector, it is unlikely that Russia will renew this contract in 2013. Consequently, the stability of the electric grid in the United States now depends on the friendship with their former archenemy and possibly today's and tomorrow's most important economic competitor. The dependence of USA on Russia's good will looks like an interesting problem for the next few years. These uranium data demonstrate the obvious contradiction between the goal that energy imports need to be reduced in order to achieve more energy security, as expressed by past and present US administrations, and reality.

Thus, the data demonstrate that there is nothing like uranium self-sufficiency in the United States, the European Union, Japan, and other rich countries, and that the uranium import dependence is in general much larger than for oil and gas. In fact, the data on uranium mining and the large import dependence for several large uranium consuming countries undermine strongly the widespread belief that uranium resources are plentiful and that uranium exploration and mining costs are only a minor problem for nuclear energy production.

A naive observer may conclude that the permanently repeated claims from authorities, such as from the NEA director general L. Echávarri and the IAEA deputy director Y. Sokolov in 2006 [19], that uranium resources are plentiful and sufficient to sustain the expected growth of nuclear power are either wishful thinking or assume that such statements are needed in order to reinforce the belief in a bright future for nuclear energy.

More details about uranium mining in different countries and especially their evolution during the past years and the near future needs will be presented in the next section.

Uranium needs and production limits: the next 10 years

As we have seen in the previous section, the world nuclear power plants can reach a maximum capacity of 410 GWe by 2015. In order to achieve this number, it has to be assumed that none of current 370 GWe reactors will be decommissioned and that all plants currently under construction can be completed by 2015.

We shall now estimate how much uranium fuel can be expected for the operation of nuclear power plants around the year 2015 and whether this amount will provide a second constraint for the number of nuclear plants in operation. Such estimates are fairly reliable because the fuel needs for the reactors operating or under construction today are well known. Fuel requirements of future generation reactors are irrelevant for the next 10 years as at least 20 years of research and development are required to build them [8].

Nuclear capacity estimates and the corresponding uranium needs for the years beyond 2015 are becoming more and more speculative. For example, one needs to know what will happen with the oldest nuclear reactors and whether they can be replaced in time. Nevertheless many government agencies, like the IAEA/NEA, the IEA or the EIA from the USA government, as well as large pro-nuclear organizations like the WNA try to make forecasts at least up to the year 2030. For example the 2008 press declaration for the 2007 edition of the Red Book states [16]:

World nuclear energy capacity is expected to grow from 372 GWe in 2007 to between 509 GWe (+38%) and 663 GWe (+80%) by 2030. To fuel this expansion, annual uranium requirements are anticipated to rise to between 94,000 tons and 122,000 tons, based on the type of reactors in use today.

More generally, three scenarios for the evolution of the yearly nuclear capacity are envisaged for the next 20 years [20]:

  1. a fast growth with an increase of +2% per year;
  2. a reference scenario with a 1% annual growth; and
  3. a slow decline scenario with a 1% annual decrease starting in 2010.

Taking the performance from the world-wide nuclear power plants and from the uranium mines in the last few years as an indication, only scenario (3), the slow phase-out, seems to be consistent with the current data. This trend might even be strengthened by the current financial world crisis, which will make it more difficult to obtain the large commitments needed for the construction of new nuclear power plants and new uranium mines, and indeed, some construction delays for new nuclear projects have already been announced [21]. In addition, it is evident that unpredictable events such as earthquakes, accidents or wars can only result in a capacity decrease.

The uranium requirements up to at least 2015 are already well known and summarized below:

The nuclear power perspectives up to 2015 for different countries and the world are extracted from the Red Book 2007 [14]. The WNA numbers are taken from [12]. As quantified within the 2007 edition of the Red Book and the WNA 2009 data base, the expected increase in nuclear power plant capacity is expected to come from a few countries only. Some important aspects about these near future world-wide nuclear plans are:

  • Germany, currently the fifth largest nuclear power consumer, has indicated a definite plan for their nuclear phase-out. According to this plan, the German nuclear power capacity should be reduced from 20.3 GWe to about 11 GWe by 2015 [22].
  • Very ambitious plans to complete a large number of nuclear power plants by 2015 are currently proposed by China, where the current 7.6 GWe (2007) should increase to 25-35 GWe [12]. A similar increase is planned by India, where 3.8 GWe (2007) should increase to 9.5-13.1 GWe. This can be compared with the plans from Japan, Russia, and South Korea, where their entire capacity should increase by an additional 8-10 GWe.
  • The rich OECD countries are planning currently for a roughly constant nuclear capacity.

However, the high growth 2010 forecast from the IAEA/NEA Red Book 2007 is, according to the more recent March 2009 WNA numbers, already unachievable. In fact, even this WNA estimate, which assumes that during 2009 and 2010 seven (4.3 GWe) and eight (5.2 GWe) new nuclear power plants will be connected to the grid [12], seems to be totally unrealistic.

As we are interested in estimating the maximum possible contribution from nuclear power plants during the next decade, the above Red Book scenario can be used as a guideline to estimate the requirements of uranium equivalent for the coming years. In order to operate the current and future running nuclear reactors, the authors of the Red Book 2007 estimated that between 70,000-75,000 tons of uranium equivalent are required for the year 2010 and between 77,000-86,000 tons by 2015. Following the IAEA/NEA June 2008 press declaration [16], such a growth for uranium mining seems to be a serious challenge:

Given the long lead time typically required to bring new resources into production, uranium supply shortfalls could develop if production facilities are not implemented in a timely manner.

Despite this and similar hidden warnings, the authors of the Red Book usually offer a rather rosy picture for the future uranium mining, as can be seen from the data summarized below:

The expected uranium production capacity is given in units of 1000 tons from the Red Book for the world and for different countries for the years 2010 and 2015 [25]. The expected world-wide capacity increase between 2007 and 2010 and from 2010 to 2015 is obtained from the evolution of the total capacity. The ratio between the real production numbers for 2007 from the WNA and the uranium capacity from the Red Book are given in column 2. Scenarios A and B are rough forecasts for the maximal uranium mining for the years 2010 and 2015 based on past capacity and real mining relation. For Scenario A, it is assumed that the mining performance will be 75% of the future capacity expected according to the Red Book. For Scenario B, we assume that the existing mines in 2007 will continue an average annual production of 40,000 tons and that only 50% of the capacity forecast can become operational in time.

The predicted large increase of world-wide uranium mining almost exactly matches the requirements. However, essentially all countries exaggerate their mining capacity predictions far beyond the amount that can be reasonably extracted, as demonstrated e.g. by comparing the 2007 claimed capacity with the actually achieved uranium 2007 mining results. The numbers in the second column indicate especially large and unrealistic expectations for Canada and the USA.

For 2007, the world-wide uranium mining capacity is given as of 54,370-56,855 tons. In comparison to this capacity, the expectations from the Red book for the year 2007 were given as 43,328 tons. Uranium mining 2007 achieved 41,264 tons, about 2000 tons less than the forecast for the same year. Similarly wrong estimates were given in past Red Book editions. For example the Red Book 2003 (2005) gave capacities for the year 2003 (2005) of 49,940 tons (49,720-51,565 tons). In comparison, the achieved uranium extraction was 35,492 tons in 2003 and 41,943 tons in 2005 [23].

As if these capacity numbers, exaggerated by 20-30%, would not be troubling enough, the discrep­ancy between the claimed new mining capacity and the amounts that were really achieved is even more surprising. According to the Red Book 2007, the total additional capacity in 2007 compared to 2005 was estimated to be 5290 tons. The real result for 2007, a combination from older sometimes declining operating mines and new mines, was about 700 tons lower than the one achieved in 2005. For 2008, the production reached 43,930 tons, which is 2200 tones larger than in the year 2005 but still far below the increase expected already for 2007 [17].

Similar discrepancies between Red Book predictions and real extraction data can be found in previous Red Book editions. These discrepancies are, somewhat hidden, acknowledged in the latest 2007 edition. Unfortunately instead of explaining the origin of such mistakes and correcting them in order to improve the quality of the Red Book, systematic differences are simply accepted with the statement that "world production has never exceeded 89% of the reported production capability and since 2003 has varied between 75% and 84% of production capability" [24]. Further inconsistencies exist between the expected mining capacity increase and the detailed timetable given for the opening and extensions of uranium mines [25]. For example the Red Book forecast, Table 24 (page 48), assumes that between 2007 and 2010, the uranium mining capacity will increase by 26,000 to 29,900 tons. However, direct counting of the new uranium mines (page 49) results in new capacity of about 20,000 tons.

Similarly the forecast between 2010 and 2015 assumes that new mining projects should increase the capacity by another 15,000-30,000 tons. In comparison, direct counting of new uranium mines sums up at most to about 21,000 tons, about 30% below the claimed upper limit of 30,000 tons.

A critical reader of the Red Book will thus be intrigued to investigate, in which countries these capacity increases are expected. Some of these predictions, extracted from the Red Book, are shown in the table printed above. One finds that about 50% of the world-wide uranium increase between 2007 and 2010 should come from Kazakhstan. It is claimed that their production capacity will increase from 7000 tons in 2007 to 18,000 tons. Such an increase should have raised some critical reflections and comments from the authors of the Red Book, as it would put Kazakhstan on equal terms with the combined production of Canada and Australia in 2008. According to the WNA spring 2009 document, the 2010 forecast for Kazakhstan has already been reduced to 15,000 tons [26]. If one takes the latest news about a huge corruption affair concerning the uranium resources of Kazakhstan into account [27], a further drastic reduction of the 2009 and 2010 forecasts can be predicted.

Uranium mining in Canada is also far behind the Red Book expectations [28]. Not only are the real mining numbers much lower than the claimed capacities, but the existing three mines, which produce essentially 100% of the Canadian uranium, are in steep decline. The production from these three large mines (McArthur River, McClean Lake, and Rabbit Lake) declined from 11,400 tons in 2005 to 9000 tons in 2008. The previously expected 2007 start of the Cigar Lake mine, with an estimated yearly production capacity of 7000 tons, was stopped due to catastrophic flooding in late 2006. The start-up date of this mine is now delayed until at least 2012.

One may conclude that the Red Book uranium mining extrapolations are exaggerated and not based on hard facts, as one would have expected from this internationally well respected document.

Those interested in the near future nuclear energy contribution and thus uranium mining perspectives for the next 10 years should consequently not use the Red Book data directly. Instead, we might try to guess more realistic numbers by using the ratio between the 2007 mining results and the 2007 capacity as a first guess and update and improve these numbers accordingly during the next few years. Following this method, we should reduce the mining capacities by at least 20-30% in order to obtain a more meaningful forecast (Scenario A). As a result, we might predict a total uranium production of about 60,000 tons in 2010 and 72,000 tons in 2015. At least for 2010, it is already clear that the Scenario A numbers are still quite a bit too high.

For Scenario B, we used the evolution of new uranium mines in order to determine how fast new capacity can become operational. Using this procedure and the real mining data from the past few years, roughly 40,000 tons per year, and assuming that only 50% of the new mining capacities can be realized, we might predict a perhaps more realistic production of 54,000 tons in 2010, and 61,500 tons by 2015. Those numbers can be compared to the latest WNA June 2009 estimates, where a total of 49,400 tons and 74,000 tons are predicted for 2009 and 2015, respectively [29]. It seems that such professional estimations do not use much more input than a mixture of the above two simple-minded methods. Within less than one year, we shall be able to update the above scenarios using the 2009 results and improve the 2010 and 2015 forecasts accordingly.

For those interested, I am offering a bet that the 2009 and 2010 numbers will not be higher than 45,000 tons and 47,000 tons, respectively.

Taking into account that civilian secondary resources currently provide about 21,000 tons of natural uranium equivalent per year and that the civilian part of these resources will be basically exhausted within the next few years, one finds that even the optimistic WNA 2009 numbers indicate uranium fuel supply stress during the coming years. According to a recent presentation at the annual WNA September 2008 symposium from the Ux consulting (Macquarie Research commodities ) [29], about 1200 tons of uranium are missing for the 2009 demand. Furthermore, an uranium mining result below 50,000 tons/year in 2009 and beyond will result in a serious uranium shortage.

Summary of Part I: Nuclear fission energy today

Our analysis of publicly available data from the large international and very pro-nuclear organiza­tions, the IAEA and the WNA, show that the current evolution of nuclear fission energy is consistent with a slow nuclear phase-out. This situation is summarized by the following points:

  • The overall fraction of nuclear energy to electric energy has gone down from 18% in 1993 to less than 14% in 2008. With electric energy providing roughly 16% of the world-wide energy end use, one finds overall a nuclear energy contribution of less than 2.5%.
  • The number of produced TWhe of electric energy from world-wide nuclear power plants is now lower than in 2005, and it has decreased by about 2% from a maximum of 2658 TWhe in 2006 to 2601 TWhe in 2008.
  • Today and world wide, 48 nuclear power plants with a capacity of about 40 GWe are under construction. Only 10% of them are being constructed within OECD countries, which host currently about 85% of the existing nuclear reactors. However, about 100 older reactors with slightly larger capacity are reaching their retirement age during the same period. It follows that even if all 48 reactors might be connected within the next 5 to 10 years to the electric grid, it will be difficult to maintain the current level of TWhe produced by nuclear energy.
  • The natural uranium equivalent required to operate the 370 GWe nuclear power plants of today is roughly 65,000 tons per year. However during the past 10 years, the world-wide uranium mines extracted, on average, only about 40,000 tons of uranium per year, and the difference had to be compensated for by secondary resources. According to the data from the Red Book 2007 and the WNA, the remaining civilian uranium stocks are expected to be exhausted during the next few years. Consequently the current uranium supply situation is unsustainable.
  • The urgency to increase world-wide uranium mining by a large amount is well documented in the current and past Red Book editions and related official declarations. However, the latest uranium mining data indicate that new uranium mines will not be capable to compensate for the diminishing secondary uranium resources, and that it will be difficult to fuel the existing 370 GWe. It seems that either a rather welcome but improbable further large conversion of nuclear weapons into reactor material will happen during the coming years, or fuel supply problems within the next 3-5 years will force a 10-20 GWe reduction of the operational nuclear power capacity.

We can thus conclude Part I: Nuclear Fission Energy Today, with the statement that publicly available official data are inconsistent with the widespread belief that the world is in a "Nuclear Energy Renaissance" phase. In reality, the data about uranium mining and the large number of aging nuclear reactors indicate that the trend of a 1% annual decrease of fission produced TWhe will continue at least up until 2015. In fact, the increasingly serious uranium supply situation might even lead to a forced nuclear shutdown of perhaps 5% of the world-wide reactors, most likely in countries without sufficient domestic uranium mining and enrichment facilities. Such a result would certainly end the widespread belief in a bright future for nuclear fission energy.

References

[1] Statistics about the energy use in different countries can be found at the statistics page of the International Energy Agency at http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/index.asp.

[2] Detailed information about the electric energy production and use can be found at http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/prodresult.asp?PRODUCT=Electricity/Heat.

[3] Cf. for example Switzerland under [2] or the Swiss Bundesamt für Energie at http://www.bfe.admin.ch/themen/00526/00541/00542/00630/index.html?lang=de&dossier id=00765.

[4] World energy statistics are collected and published on a yearly basis by the IEA, http://www.iea.org/textbase/nppdf/free/2008/key_stats_2008.pdf; the EIA, the Energy Information Administration of the USA government, http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contents.html; and from BP in their "Statistical Review of World Energy 2009" http://www.bp.com/productlanding.do?categoryId=6929&contentId=7044622.

[5] Some examples of government independent websites with discussions about the en­ergy problem are The Oil Drum, http://www.theoildrum.com/; the Energy Bulletin, http://www.energybulletin.net/; and The Post Carbon Institute, http://www.postcarbon.org/.

[6] For more detailed information and further references cf. for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste.

[7] Operation statistics, history, and known concrete plans concerning Fast Breeder Reac­tors (FBRs) and all other reactor types can be obtained from the IAEA PRIS data base at http://www.iaea.org/programmes/a2/ and the IAEA Fast Reactor Database at http://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/frdb/index.html. Additional details can be found in the WNA Information papers http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf98.html.

[8] Cf. the Generation IV "Technology Roadmap" document at the GenIV International Forum http://gif.inel.gov/roadmap/.

[9] For the year 2008 status and production of nuclear electric energy cf. for example the WNA papers at http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.html; http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/inf01.html; and http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/nshare.html.

[10] Past and present electric energy production data for essentially all nuclear reactors and for differ­ent countries can be found at the IAEA PRIS data base at http://www.iaea.org/programmes/a2/.

[11] For an overview of the decommissioning of nuclear facilities cf. http://www.world­-nuclear.org/info/inf19.html, and for particular plans about reactor terminations in the United Kingdom cf. http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf84.html.

[12] For a detailed timetable about the expected grid connection of near future nuclear power plants cf. the table at the end of the WNA document "Plans For New Reactors Worldwide" at http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.html.

[13] The 2007/2008 numbers are from the WNA document http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/reactors-jul08.html. Regular updates of this table including the 2008/2009 situation can be found at http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/reactors.html.

[14] The detailed numbers are extracted from the Red Book 2007 edition, "Ura­nium 2007 Resources, Production and Demand." The book is published ev­ery two years by the IAEA/NEA and can be found at the OECD book store http://www.oecdbookshop.org/oecd/display.asp?K=5KZLLSXQS6ZV&DS=Uranium-2007. Free online versions of some past editions can be found via "Google books."

[15] Cf. [14] Table 24 on page 48.

[16] Nuclear Energy Agency press declaration of June 3, 2008 concerning the new edi­tion of the Red Book 2007 "Uranium 2007 Resources, Production and Demand" at http://www.nea.fr/html/general/press/2008/2008-02.html.

[17] Results for world-wide uranium mining extractions including the 2008 data are summa­rized at http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf23.html. Many more detailed numbers and some past estimates for the coming year(s) can be found in the different Red Book editions at the OECD book store http://www.oecdbookshop.org/oecd/display.asp?K=5KZLLSXQS6ZV&DS=Uranium-2007 and the 2006 review "Forty Years of Uranium Resources, Production and Demand in Perspective. The Red Book Retrospective."

[18] The 2008 data concerning uranium mining are from the WNA http://www.world-­nuclear.org/info/inf23.html. The other numbers are extracted from the Red Book 2007 edition [14] and the from the 2006 review of the past 40 years cited under [17].

[19] Cf. for example the presentation by Luis E. Echávarri, NEA Director-General and Yuri Sokolov, International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Deputy Director-General, for the new "Red Book" 2005 edition at http://www.nea.fr/html/general/press/2006/redbook/redbook.pdf.

[20] For the three scenarios up to the year 2030, cf. http://www.world­-nuclear.org/sym/2005/pdf/Maeda.pdf. Some ideas about long-term nuclear growth with surprising guesses for many countries are presented by the WNA "Nuclear Century Outlook" document at http://www.world-nuclear.org/outlook/clean_energy_need.html. For example, the nuclear capacity for Germany by 2030 is estimated to be between today's 20 GWe and 50 GWe, and many more surprising and totally unrealistic numbers can be found at http://www.world-nuclear.org/outlook/nuclear_century_outlook.html.

[21] Cf. for example Nature News November 19, 2008 "Nuclear renaissance plans hit by financial crisis" at http://www.nature.com/news/2008/081119/full/456286a.html; Ameren suspends new nuclear plant plans (April 24, 2009) at http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=25101 and http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=23202 concerning a three-year delay due to various construction problems of the AREVA EPR reactor in Finland. Some more details can be found in the May 2009 IEA review: "The impacts of the financial and economic crisis on the global energy investment" and page 50/51 about its consequences for the nuclear energy sector at http://www.iea.org/textbase/Papers/2009/G8_FinCrisis_Impact.pdf.

[22] The current schedule for the nuclear phase-out of different nuclear power plants in Germany is given in http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf43.html.

[23] The uranium mining capacity numbers are taken from the past Red Book editions of 2003 and 2005.

[24] Red Book 2007 [14] page 86.

[25] Cf. pages 48 and 49 of the Red Book 2007 edition [14].

[26] Details about uranium mining in Kazakhstan are given under http://www.world­-nuclear.org/info/inf89.html.

[27] Some details about the corruption affair in Kazakhstan can be found at http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/ENF_Response_to_Kazakh_investigation_0306092.html.

[28] The latest uranium mining result and future expectations can be found at http://www.world­-nuclear.org/info/inf49.html.

[29] Cf. the presentation of Maximilian Layton, Macquarie Capital Securities "The global uranium outlook: is 2008/09 a buying opportunity?" at the 2008 WNA symposium http://www.world-nuclear.org/sym/2008/presentations/laytonpresentation.pdf and for the latest 2009 forecast of 49,375 tons from the WNA http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf23.html.

Michael,
You state: "This analysis about nuclear energy and its future contribution attempts to shed some light on the nuclear reality and its limitations."
While you have given a good summary of some of the potential limitations of nuclear replacing some FF energy,
most importantly you have left out some of the potential of nuclear energy.
While 40GWe is under construction, 131GWe is in the planning stages. China which produces just 1% of its electricity from nuclear has plans to expand it's present 8GW to 60GW by 2020(12 under construction others being contracted). It would be surprising if China and India do not at least generate 20% of their electricity from nuclear in next two decades, even as they expand wind and solar, because they do not have the coal reserves.

"While the connection of about 10 reactors per year would indicate a substantial increase compared to the past 15 years, this number is far lower than 25 years ago, when 33 new nuclear reactors were started up each year."
So what? Is there a reason why you think we would be unable to complete 33 reactors per year in the next decades?

It is not clear that many of the existing reactors are going to shut down after 40 years operation, licensing is usually for periods of 20 years and then must be renewed. Some of the earlier shut downs were older less safe designs such as the graphite moderated reactors in E Europe and UK. Other planned shut downs may well be delayed or licensing extended for another 20 years.

As far as uranium supplies, one mine expansion planned in Australia ( Olympic dam) will increase uranium from 4,000 tonnes to 19,000 tonnes/year. Many other mines in Australia are waiting for higher prices before being developed. New technology has enabled very deep deposits to be economically mined.
http://bravenewclimate.com/2009/04/05/carbon-footprint-of-the-olympic-da...

Longer term, breeder fuel cycles have the potential to extend uranium and thorium supplies by X400 times what is available from using the U235 isotope.

Why would you not consider a kWh(3.6MJ) generated by a nuclear power plant worth three times the energy content of 3.6MJ of coal, since 10.8MJ of coal is needed to generate one kWh of electricity? Electricity consumers use kWh not the BTU's in uranium or coal. In terms of base-load nuclear and coal are fairly comparable, hydro is more flexible and receives a premium price because of that.

A good article accessible to me with only a general science degree.
Michael:
You seem IMHO to be being disingenuous.
Chinese building is trivial and the effect of increasing potential resource shortfall is covered in the posting.
'Longer term, breeder fuel...potential' the posting is all about the here and now not a fantastic world vision.
As to expanding the building program generally what are they going to run on.

The light water thorium breeder reactor was well proven in the 1970's. That technology can be retrofit into existing reactors (www.thoriumpower.com). Canadian CANDU style reactors can also breed thorium very efficiently. Thorium has been ignored because uranium (and plutonium from decommissioning bombs) has been so cheap. While I agree that a transition will take some time, it is readily achievable and not pie-in-the-sky. If the true costs of climate change were applied to coal immediately, nuclear would expand dramatically (along with wind, solar, etc...)

Great post and thank you for your analysis.

Most of the physics is over my head, but would agree that physics is not the challenge?

You are saying that until 2015-2020, we are in status quo in terms of additional global nuclear power capacity. Understood.

Now, constraints to expansion of nuclear power are:
1. NIMBY location of power plant concerns.
2. Waste storage concerns.
3. Lack of new plant construction.
4. Lack of uranium.

If the power is needed, and nothing else is available, 1 and 2 will disappear as concerns.

3 is also not a challenge. Sure, nuclear power plants are expensive, but not for the US/Europe which just paid out trillions of dollars to support a credit system and are paying billions more for clunker automobiles.

4 is the real challenge. A large amount of uranium over the past twenty years has come from weapons decommissioning, particularly from former Soviet States. This availability has kept uranium prices low and discouraged exploration by miners. Is the uranium available? What do the cost curves for uranium miners look like? Are there large known quantities of low grade ore available such that, once uranium prices rise, miners will be able to produce much more?

Your list is incomplete.

The lack of new construction means that it will take a decade plus to just rebuild the workforce experience and supporting supply network.

MASSIVE costs to do so (max eight new USA nukes in 10 years, first one likely to cost $`12+ billion).

Money better spent elsewhere.

Once better uses of capital are fully funded, then lets spend $50 billion to revive the US nuke building industry so that we can built 7 new nukes in the first decade and 30 in the next decade and more in the third decade (maybe).

Alan

The solution is to modularize the construction: China is planning to build 100 Westinghouse AP1000s by 2020 -GASP !!

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/ap1000-modular-reactor-construction.html

-See, it CAN be done if there is a will to do it...

MIT Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering along with American Nuclear Society sponsored a Seminar in March 2009, unfortunately fuel availability was not on their radar screen. Presentations at http://mit.edu/ans/www/seminar2.html

Alan,

My respect for your understanding of the nuclear industry trends steadily upward.

Presuming that you mean by "better spent else where" spent on conservation you are almost certainly correct in terms of bang for the buck.

I did not realize until now that the uranium supply depends so heavily on imports.

But that could change fast if some good deposits known to exist w/i our borders are developed-if things get bad enough ,the owners can buy off the nimby crowd with a few million in goodies for the locals.

BUMP FOR LaTeX

Longer term, breeder fuel cycles have the potential to extend uranium and thorium supplies by X400 times what is available from using the U235 isotope.

Yes, and

1) this is unproven potential, though if the X400 figure is close, we may throw a lot of resources at the problem and make it work somehow.

2) a coal train or oil tanker has no military escort, but an LNG tanker does. this is because LNG's energy density is far higher. if breeders really have X400 energy density as you claim, they will require orders of magnitude more militarism.

1. Breeders are not really unproven. There have been several working breeder reactors built since the 70-ies. They are simply not economical yet due to the increased complexity.

(update: my math was off a bit)
2. The X400 extension of supplies claimed is way, way, WAY to low. The correct extension should a few million times or so. The reason is as follows: First (if we only look at uranium) breeders would give us about 50 times more energy per kilogram of natural uranium.

Second, and this is important, when energy extraction is 50 times better, you can obviously(?) use ores 50 times more diluted. Combine this with the fact that there is a 300-fold increase in the amount of uranium recoverable for each tenfold decrease in ore grade, and you will find that allowing a 50-fold decrease in ore grade makes 16000 times more uranium recoverable.

Then you just need to multiply: 50 times better energy extraction times 16000 times more uranium available. 50*16000 = 800,000 times more uranium energy available than today. Then we have thorium, which is more abundant than uranium...

Second, and this is important, when energy extraction is 50 times better, you can obviously(?) use ores 50 times more diluted.

No, no, no and no! Not at a net energy gain necessarily!

That's just bad bad bad science

I stand by my statement. Could you please explain why you oppose it, and not just that you do?

50 times the thermal energy doesn't mean 50 times the net electrical energy, since it doesn't automaticaly follow that the eficiency of of the thermal-electrical conversion of both reactors is the same and that the energy inputs are the same proportion to the outputs.

By the way, I don't know if it is the same, and, if you know, I'd like to hear your answer.

Is there any reason to believe thermal-to-electrical conversion will be significantly worse for breeder designs? At least some of the breeder designs operates at higher temperatures, allowing for higher conversion efficiency than today.

I thought he may be thinking that energy invested in mining would grow faster than the inverse of the ore grade, but I don't understand why that would be.

The efficiency depends on the temperature. The higher the temperature, the better the efficiency rate will be. However, the temperature of a nuclear reactor is chosen much lower than that of a coal-fired or gas-fired power plant, because this lengthens the life-time of the burning chamber. A fossil-fuel furnace can be shut down every 10 years or so to replace the burner. You can't do this with a nuclear power plant because of the radiation. For this reason, a temperature is chosen that is a compromise between keeping the efficiency acceptably high (around 33%), while allowing the burner to operate for about 40 years.

It has quite a bit more to do with the fact that most reactors are light water reactors and dependent on the corrosiveness of water at certain temperatures. Gas cooled and molten salt reactors dont have these limitations and can run quite hot.

Indeed, and the latest LWR's have higher thermal efficiencies. EPR is 37 % while the Mitsubishi APWR is 39 % IIRC.

may be you wanted to say:

the new EPR is hopping to have 37% efficiency

lets wait till the first EPR is working and see the actual numbers!

michael

ps.. as was pointed out the upper temperature is limited because of
corrosion and other effects
therefore it will never be better than a gas power fired plant

also do you really want to make a big point of a change from 33% to 37% ??

also do you really want to make a big point of a change from 33% to 37% ??

Why not? If it could be applied to all reactors, the extra power would be about as much as all the wind power in the world.

ok,

if you think that makes an impact!

And i thought you want to find a way to compensate for
the coming decline from oil gas and coal somehow

3% decline of oil alone and ignoring that electric energy does not replace
our oil uses ..

thus 40% of the world energy is roughly from oil
3% of this = 1%
thus how many nukes (even with 37% efficiency) need to be ready in time
and how much uranium will be needed?

michael

I think improvments by 12% are noteworthy (37/33 = 1.12). It all adds up, you know?

About replacing oil - it is unclear what, if any, path nuclear energy will take to replace oil. If we go the battery path, uranium may very well replace oil at a 1:1 ratio or better (primary-energy-wise). If we go from fission to hydrogen and then possibly to ammonia or methanol, the ratio depends on the losses in those conversions, which in turn depend on whether you deploy HTE reactors and so on.

If we assume a one-to-one ratio, nuclear needs to be at 15+40=55%, requiring an expansion to 370% of today's levels. Uranium requirements would also stand at 370%, of course, unless we use breeders, in which case uranium requirements would stand at less than 10% of today's levels.

if 14% of the worlds electric energy comes from nuclear

and 16% of the world mix is electric

well

perhaps you could compare

2.5% with the 40% oil no?

if you belief that cars can be all electric like trains lets say
well yes you need the factor of 4 or so
otherwise another factor of 2-3!

thus 370 GWe --> 1500 GWe (/efficiency of an unproven large scale technology)

for france alone from roughly 60 nuclear power plants to 240 right?

and already now their is not enough cooling water during the summer!

do you really imagine this scenario to be realistic?

michael

ps.. do you really believe that one can build a large commercial FBR today?
if so who can do this?
but I would prefer to keep the FBR out of the discussion for a few weeks
and stick to todays known once through reactors and their uranium needs

Michael

You have not addressed the comments that I have had on uprating existing nuclear plants and using new technology for ultra-uprating with dual cooled fuel. You also have not addressed the work in the US (Idaho National Labs), Japan and other places for extending existing plant operating life to 60-80 years.

http://www.inl.gov/featurestories/docs/inl_07-13543_08.pdf

The modular construction in Korea/Westinghouse (which is being followed for china's build up appears to be enabling faster and cheaper and predictable construction. The use of Intergraph smart Plan for design, project planning and control is new and was not available in past projects.
http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/08/faster-and-cheaper-nuclear-plant.html

http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/publicationsandmedia/insight/insigh...
there are ways to use less fresh water for nuclear plant cooling. there is waste water cooling and seawater cooling and forced air cooling.

The electric power industry is pursuing strategies to use less water, less freshwater, or no freshwater at all for plant cooling.

For instance, the Palo Verde nuclear plant in Arizona, the largest power plant in the United States, is the only nuclear plant in the world to use recycled, partially-treated municipal wastewater for the plant’s cooling towers. Palo Verde is the only U.S. nuclear plant not situated on a large body of water.

Another innovative cooling strategy is used by the Limerick nuclear plant near Philadelphia, which makes use of mine pool water to augment river flow during shortages.

Some companies planning to build new nuclear plants intend to use hybrid cooling systems, or use water treatment technology, such as seawater desalination to conserve freshwater resources, or even dry cooling systems that would use forced air rather than water.

Water consumption at nuclear power plants
http://www.nei.org/keyissues/protectingtheenvironment/factsheets/waterco...

coal (any thermal plant - solar thermal, natural gas) also uses water for cooling
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/cooling_power_plants_inf121.html

Michael

You have not addressed the comments that I have had on uprating existing nuclear plants and using new technology for ultra-uprating with dual cooled fuel. You also have not addressed the work in the US (Idaho National Labs), Japan and other places for extending existing plant operating life to 60-80 years.

sorry perhaps i overlooked your question.

in the paper I give the figures from the PRIS IAEA website

it is now 370 GWe slighly down from last year. despite perhaps a few improved power numbers
by the way the "cooling powers" of big nuclear power plants in Switzerland seem to require
up to 5% of the generated electric energy to be operated ..
(i doubt that this is included in the carnot efficiency of 33% given)

the planned new power p[lants for 2009 (and 2010 it seems)
nicely listed in one post

are already outdated
in fact as far as I could check

only the Japanese one (start foreseen Dec 2009 might make it this year
(the indian ones are already delayed from last years and their uranium shortage
which makes them running the power plants on 50% power is not over
despite the tries to ignore the NPT laws by the former Bush government

for the increased power yes sure lets see how many of the reactors can/will do this

for now not a single reactor was connected to the grid in 2008
and not a single one in 2009 so far

but some were terminated and others are on technical stop
the latest IAEA numbers for 2009 and the OECD countries indicate another reduction of the number of kWh from nuclear

(and this yes despite sometimes very massive hidden subvention policies..)

michael

Browns Ferry unit 1 started 2007

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/stories/20090814261611600.htm
Interview with S.K. Jain, Chairman and Managing Director, Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited.

Unit-1 will start producing power early 2010. As per the progress achieved so far, we expect Unit-2 also to go critical 2010. We are making all efforts to keep the gap in the criticality between the two units to less than a year.

India had signed an agreement with Russia for importing 2,000 tonnes of natural uranium to fuel its PHWRs …

The yellowcake from Areva and a consignment from Russia have reached the Nuclear Fuel Complex [NFC] in Hyderabad. We have, after getting the clearance of the International Atomic Energy Agency [IAEA], started the fabrication of fuel from this imported raw material. I flagged off the first consignment of the fabricated fuel on July 11 at the NFC for use in the second reactor at the Rajasthan Atomic Power Station [RAPS], which [the second unit] is already under safeguards.

We expect the entire initial core load of fabricated fuel to be made available at RAPS-2 in August. We plan to start the reactor in August and it will be producing its full power of 200 MWe by September. The indigenous fuel supply also has improved. The mill and the mine at Turamdih [in Jharkhand] have added to the supply of natural uranium fuel from Jaduguda. We have, therefore, increased the power level of our reactors to 65 per cent from less than 50 per cent. I plan to take them to 70 per cent.

RAPS 5 and 6, and Kaiga-4 [in Karnataka] are waiting for fuel. As per the Separation Plan, Rajasthan 5 and 6 will be put under the IAEA safeguards. Kaiga-4 will be outside that domain. So RAPS 5 and 6 also become eligible for the use of imported fuel. The fuel is getting ready. If the fuel fabrication plans at the NFC are achieved… we hope that by this year-end both RAPS 5 and 6 will be commissioned and they will start operating at their full capacity.

With the increased flow of indigenous uranium, we hope that fuel will be available in another six to eight months, and Kaiga-4 will start operating.

Are our problems over as far as the uranium supply is concerned?

As the CMD of NPCIL, I feel that I have come out of a bad dream. The turnaround is taking place and we want to march ahead.

What is the status of the PFBR (500 MWe) construction?

By this year-end, the construction of the nuclear island building will be 100 per cent complete. We have received the main vessel, the inner vessel, the core-catcher, the core support structure and the roof beam. All the critical components of the core are at the site. The pumps and the heat exchangers are in an advanced stage of completion.

From September onwards, we will witness a series of critical activities in the PFBR construction. The work on conventional island building has picked up. Our target is achieving criticality in 2011.

Volgadonsk 2 - set for Oct 2009 start
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN_Volgodonsk_2_on__the_final_straight...

Russian reactors
Russia's Afrikantov OKBM has completed the assembly of the second KLT-40S reactor for the country's first floating nuclear power plant, currently under construction in St Petersburg. The first reactor has already been delivered.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-Reactors_ready_for_first_floating_p...

the production described is basically on track.

there also has been uprate completions
http://www.powermag.com/nuclear/Nuclear-Uprates-Add-Critical-Capacity_18...
Power uprates alone have added more than 5,600 MW since 1998 — the equivalent of five new nuclear plants.

Boiler Water reactor uprates
Browns Ferry 1,2, 3 are adding 125 MWe each.
Monticello adding 80 MWe

Each of the three units at Tennessee Valley Authority’s Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant is expecting NRC approval of a 15% EPU in 2009. The NRC operating licenses for Units 1, 2, and 3 were renewed in May 2006, which will allow continued operation of the units until 2033, 2034, and 2036.

USA PWR uprates
2010 6 plants 2,274 MWt 758 MWe
2011 8 plants 3173 MWt 1058 MWe
2012 1 plant 522 174
2013 2 plants 870 MWt 290 MWe

You have not addressed operating life extensions. Your thesis is 100 plant shutdowns from now to 2020. so any delays of a few months or a year as production ramps up is offset by shutdowns that do not happen.

if 14% of the worlds electric energy comes from nuclear and 16% of the world mix is electric well perhaps you could compare 2.5% with the 40% oil no?

You are right and wrong. Nuclear stands at 6% of the world primary energy mix, so I should have calculated (40+6)/6 = 1200% to get a ballpark figure for oil replacement by nuclear at 1:1 in primary energy.

thus 370 GWe --> 1500 GWe (/efficiency of an unproven large scale technology)

More like 370 GWe -> 4300 GWe. That is probably not practical without breeding.

for france alone from roughly 60 nuclear power plants to 240 right?

France's oil consumption stands at 2 million barrels a day, which, if I calculated this correctly, represents about 3.3 TWh. At the same time, their nuclear power plants produce about 3.5 TWh thermal energy per day. So France wouldn't even have to double their fleet, assuming 1:1 ratio in primary energy.

and already now their is not enough cooling water during the summer!

Is that really a problem? Just place the new reactors along the shores.

ps.. do you really believe that one can build a large commercial FBR today?

Typical FBRs are not economical in the current energy environment, no. The world is flush with cheap coal, natural gas and uranium - adding complexity to be frugal with fuel makes no sense. However, the somewhat hyped LFTR seems to be fundamentally less expensive than current light water reactors. But if it is to take off in this environment, I guess some government has to take the costs of creating and building a type-certifiable design.

I should have calculated (40+6)/6 = 1200%

That's more like 767%.

More like 370 GWe -> 4300 GWe. That is probably not practical without breeding.

Perhaps, but Th-232 is also fertile, is roughly 4x as abundant as U-238 and can be bred at breakeven or better in thermal reactors.

Nuclear is not 2.5 % of all energy, but about 6 % IIRC. Your fraction of electricity as a share of energy use is not only wrong, but the share of electricity is growing. If EV's or PHEV's are introduced on a broad front, the fraction will grow explosively.

During the peak year in French nuclear reactor deployment 8 reactors were built. The year before that 6, and the year after 6. The peak year was 1983 IIRC, a mere 10 years after the crash program had been launched. That is, in year 9, 10 and 11, 20 reactors were completed (export reactors not included).

Taking the larger populations in account that'd be 27 for Germany and 100 for the US. Just in the three top years. This is what is evidently possible from an engineering point of view (as it has already been done once), if there is a strong political will.

One, the French has not completed only one new reactor in the 17 years leading up to the start of their crash program.

Two, I question the safety standards during that crash build.

It is *NOT* just a "matter of political will".

The knowledge and experience base has died or retired and the supply chain supports only maintenance.

Alan

The knowledge and experience base has died or retired and the supply chain supports only maintenance.

Where was the knowledge and experience base before the build?

Naval reactors, research reactors and early small commercial reactors.

Today, for good reason, we have higher safety standards than in the 1950s and 1960s. We should not repeat the low quality of those early reactors. Or try and emulate Chinese quality.

The fact is that no new commercial nuke has been completed in 13 years in the USA (Watts Bar 1, started 1973, completed May 1996). And less than a handful have been completed in the last 20 years.

The experience and knowledge base is simply gone.

And a shortage of experience and knowledge is what killed the nuke building industry last time. A new Rush to Nukes will likely have the same result (waste $100 billion on half completed plants).

One of too many

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marble_Hill_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Alan

And a shortage of experience and knowledge is what killed the nuke building industry last time.

It was a combination of political opposition and poor management. Trojan was shut down largely because of political uncertainty.

I seriously doubt that the industry would forget past lessons going forward; In any case we're discussing hypotheticals here. We aren't going to introduce some national mobilization to build new nukes in the next ten years but we will be building a few here and there to rebuild capacity. We aren't going to have brownouts across the nation to make any sort of national mobilization politically possible weather or not its a good idea.

In ten years we might be signing up for tens or hundreds, and we'll be more ready either way. Hopefully in 20 years we'll be moving towards mass production of liquid fuel reactors, but who can say? With so much coal still avaliable we might just keep burning that for decades... What we will do and should do are different beasts entirely.

We aren't going to introduce some national mobilization to build new nukes in the next ten years but we will be building a few here and there to rebuild capacity... In ten years we might be signing up for tens or hundreds, and we'll be more ready either way.

I largely agree. But there are advocates on this thread for building a dozen prototype reactors, each with a fundamentally different technology, IN ADDITION TO a French style "Rush to Nukes".

"Poor Management" on almost every new nuke being built ? Such universal "poor management" was due to a lack of knowledge and experience from the top to the middle and the ranks.

BTW, if one looks at what operating nukes were selling for a decade plus ago (their fair market value) and what new steam generators cost (Trojan's were worn out), it made business sense to shut Trojan down. The steam generators cost about as much what they could have sold Trojan to a 3rd party for.

Alan

Naval reactors, research reactors and early small commercial reactors…

The experience and knowledge base is simply gone.

Today we have naval reactors, research reactors, large commercial reactors and associated supply chains and several decades of experience running real plants. The existing knowledge base is far larger than before the first build.

Today, for good reason, we have higher safety standards than in the 1950s and 1960s.

Coal kills 30,000 per year in the U.S. generating half our electricity. Without our 104 nuclear plants we would have more coal plants killing another 10,000 per year. Over the last 20 years about 200,000 lives saved by nuclear power.

How many have died due to the low safety standards of our 104 plants?

How many nuclear plants would we have if fossil fuel had to pay for the full cost of the damage there emissions do?

List all of the “good reasons” for higher safety standards and calculate how many lives will be saved by the higher standards that make plants more expensive and keep us dependent on fossil fuel longer.

Could it be that you want to make nuclear plants as expensive as possible to give your preferred technologies an advantage?

Coal kills 30,000 per year in the U.S. generating half our electricity.

Link?

Killer coal. Make it 20,000 deaths per year.

http://www.catf.us/publications/reports/Dirty_Air_Dirty_Power.pdf

One, the French has not completed only one new reactor in the 17 years leading up to the start of their crash program.

I don't really understand what you're trying to get at here?

Before the crash program, the French had been working with gas reactors, and were also had a small scale PWR program (Fessenheim was under construction). So there already was a small if solid knowledge base. How would that be different from now, where their is already a huge (if somehwat greyed) knowledge base? It's not like it can't be expanded. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what's happening. Just look at enrollment in nuclear courses at your local engineering school.

And I guess you're saying that the French have just completed a single reactor in the last 17 years? That's just not correct.

1992: Cattentom 4, Penly 2.
1994: Golfech 2.
1996: Chooz B1.
1999: Chooz B2, Civaux 1.
2000: Civaux 2.

(exports not included.)

Speaking of the security I think you've mentioned that before, but as far I've know I've never seen any sources or studies (peer-reviewed or not) that corroborate it.

The French, as you said, had a small but solid core of experienced people to start with. The United States does not.

I remember the hires for the last (or one of the last) new nuke plants to start construction in the USA (as others were being completed), Palo Verde. They "got the pick of the litter", "the guys with grey hair that had built a couple of nukes before". Palo Verde started construction in 1976. And ended in 1988.

Since Palo Verde was completed, 21 years ago, what have those "grey hairs" done ? A few moved onto finishing Watts Bar, most found other careers and have since retired. Many are dead.

The Finns had problems pouring the concrete for the foundation of their new EPR (from memory). Who in the USA has supervised pouring the foundation for new nuke ? Every last one of them is in their 70s, 80s or dead. We can expect the same problems that the Finns had.

Taking a man who left, say, Comanche Peak (1974-1990, one of the very last to be completed) two decades ago as a junior .... and found a completely new career afterwards, and is now planning his retirement, Making him a senior .... is not a recipe for success *IF* he is willing to take the job.

The once vast experience of the USA is dead, retired or about to retire. Simply being away for twenty plus years from nuke construction is a loss of experience. Few people can pick up where they left off.

The French had a far superior experience base (see your list) to what the United States has today. Anyone who has been around newly graduated engineers knows that they are dangerous if not supervised. And who will supervise them ?

Alan

The French, as you said, had a small but solid core of experienced people to start with. The United States does not.

How big was the experience pool in nuclear weapons in 1941. We had two working designs and production facilities by 1945.

How big was the experience pool in moon landings before Kennedy said we are going there?

What special skills are required to pour concrete, pull wiring, weld pipe etc, much less than building spaceships.

If experience is so important, why did the early plants go up faster and at much lower cost than later plants?

{sigh}

for such a nuke advocate, you know so VERY little about building nukes.

Nuclear power plants are built on the aviation model. The aerospace industry has demonstrated a unique ability to make complex machines with extraordinarily low failure rates. (Note: Not true of WW II production).

A pipe fitter with 30 years experience in coal and natural gas fired plants is not qualified to build nukes. He does not understand the system and that "good enough" is *NOT* good enough for a nuke !

Often those old timers can never get a nuke rating.

OTOH, a riveter from Boeing is valued because he can be taught a different skill and he understands zero tolerance quality control and quality assurance, documentation and procedure.

Think of those 104 nukes as being coal plants built by Boeing, to the same standards as their 737s, 787s and satellites . Built by aerospace workers and not auto workers.

Zimmer was built by (guy in charge) a guy with GREAT coal plant building experience. Worked on a dozen in his career, headed up building two; both came in on budget and on time. Zimmer was completed and could NOT get an operating license (rightfully so). So Zimmer was converted into a coal fired plant. Billions wasted.

Your attitude reminds me very much of the head of Zimmer. If it is good enough for coal, if it is good enough for war time conditions, it is "good enough". But you point to the safety record of plants that were continually improving their safety and built to ever higher standards while advocating abolishing those standards.

Alan

The Westinghouse AP1000 and the korean APR1400 have mostly factory built modules.

the AP1000 design has half of the valves and building volume
and 65% of the pumps, one fifth the amount of pipe and 30% of the cable.

Less crew needed to build and more automation

Shandong Nuclear Power Construction Group
http://www.sepcc.net/en/about/

The Corporation currently has 11,487 employees including 6,028 staff who have the technical/college diploma, bachelor degree and above, 3,667 engineers and technicians, over 622 senior technical titled personnel, 223 national First Class Project Manager Certificate holder and 1,399 qualified welders engaging in welding activities of high-pressure pipes and vessels.

SEPCO has class A qualification for EPC contracting of electric power project construction, qualification for the installation of nuclear power pressure components, qualification for manufacturing of large bore PCCPs. The Corporation was granted the certificates of the management system for quality, safety & health and environment

Shaw Group is involved in the manufacturing and module plant. the company has evolved into a diverse engineering, construction, technology, fabrication, environmental and industrial services organization with 26,000 employees in strategic locations around the world.

http://www.shawgrp.com/markets/powersvcs/nuclearpower/nucoverview

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN_Capabilities_in_place_for_new_Chine...

Shandong said the new 71,000 square metre factory includes a cutting workshop, a pipeline workshop, a paint shop and a workshop for containment vessels (the steel liners that lie within the overall reinforced concrete reactor containment).

Large components for the Haiyang units have already been contracted: Doosan Heavy Industries of Korea is making the reactor pressure vessels and steam generators, while Mitsubishi Heavy Industries of Japan and Harbin Boiler Works of China will supply the steam turbines. For Westinghouse's other pair of AP1000s at Sanmen the steam generators and reactor pressure vessels will be made in China by either Harbin, First Heavy Machinery Works or Shanghai Electric.


one fifth of the steel and concrete. Easier to scale up.

http://www.asmeconferences.org/ICONE16/pdfs/NewPlantsBeBuilt.pdf

http://www.asmeconferences.org/ICONE16/TechnicalProgramOverview.cfm#24

All of the reliability and proof of the AP1000 will be first shown in China because that is where they will be built.

http://www.asmeconferences.org/ICONE16/TechnicalProgramOverview.cfm#143

12-2 New Construction - Where are we headed? (Technical Session)

Session Description:
This session addresses how to incorporate lessons learned from the existing fleet into current designs, the impact of uranium supply and demand on future and current plant designs, and the next evolutionary steps in design (passive) and construction.

Session Schedule: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 03:45 PM-05:30 PM

Session Sponsors:

Session Chair: hideaki heki, Toshiba Corporation

Session Co-Chair: John Tuohy, Hitachi America, Ltd

ICONE16-48207
Solution to Pakistan Electrical Power Crisis
Technical Publication

ICONE16-48507
Near-Term Deployment of Advanced Light Water Reactors
ICONE16-48507
Technical Publication

Near-Term Deployment of Advanced Light Water Reactors

Authors

Jeffrey Hamel, Electric Power Research Institute

Abstract
New nuclear power plants incorporating advanced light water reactor (ALWR) technology must overcome a number of regulatory, economic, technical, and social barriers prior to licensing, construction and successful start-up. Many of these barriers can be addressed through technical products and targeted tools that minimize deployment risks. EPRI’s Advanced Nuclear Technology (ANT) Program has been initiated to complement – and help accelerate – industry activities aimed at enabling and building confidence in new nuclear plant deployment through coordinated work on cross cutting issues. The program is built around three core elements: transferring technology to new plant designs, developing effective tools for performance management, and providing robust planning and evaluation tools for new plant deployment. This paper discusses the projects EPRI is working on with industry to enable and build confidence in new nuclear plant deployment.

ICONE16-48573
Near Term Deployment, Long Term Impact: Uranium Price Over the Lifetime of New Capacity

Authors

Erich Schneider, The University of Texas at Austin

Neil Shah, The University of Texas at Austin

Abstract
While reasonable short-term resource price projections can be obtained by taking a bottom-up approach – constructing a supply curve based upon current production capacities and costs – this approach breaks down as the time horizon of the analysis lengthens. One approach to long-term price forecasting is to calibrate a simple model of a commodity market against past data. To that end, an analogy was drawn between the behavior of the uranium market and that of some three dozen materials for which the United States Geologic Survey (USGS) maintains data. This work adds to previously published results showing that the USGS-reported prices of minerals similar to uranium have consistently declined over the past century. In this paper, the extent to which uranium geology and extraction technologies are indeed analogous to other minerals is quantitatively addressed. A study of crustal abundances, ore grades being economically mined, concentration factors, market share of extraction techniques, years of proven reserve and other factors indicates that uranium is not at all exceptional with respect to the average of the USGS minerals. This suggests that, on the supply side, the analogy between the USGS minerals and uranium may indeed offer valuable insights into medium and long term uranium price behavior.

ICONE16-48137
Technical Publication

Best Practices in Japan of Human Resources Development for NPP Oa&M: Roles and Lessons From Training Centers

Authors

Shinji YAMAMOTO, Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, Inc.

Toshiro KITAMURA, Japan Atomic Industrial Forum, Inc.

Abstract
The use of best practices and their lateral expansion as a benchmark is one of effective methods of "knowledge management". Best practices of human resources development were collected (selected examples are listed below) from all 11 training centers annexed to the nuclear power plants in Japan and lessons were learned for possible lateral development for improving other stakeholders’ NK. Such best practices will provide productive information for designing their own human resources development strategies. Examples of collected good practices: •Exhibition of troubles and negative legacies: The actual machineries, equipment or components, explanatory documents or news articles of the past troubles experienced by themselves are effective to maintain and refresh the awareness and preparedness of trainees and other employees for recurrence prevention. The exhibitions are open to the visitors, too. •Experience-type training facilities: Off-normal conditions of components and systems are simulated for the staff practical training by the use of the facilities which provide an off-normal environment. Examples are: water hammers, abnormal vibrations and noises of rotating machineries, pump cavitations, pinholes, plumbing airs, etc. •Advanced simulators for operators training: Each electric company has its own simulators for training their own operating staff. These simulators are annexed to the nuclear power plants and used to train the operation staff by the experienced shift managers. The operation staff use the simulator for continually confirming the operation procedures and the plant behavior, etc. specific to their plants. Training for generic plant behavior and operators’ responses are mainly outsourced to the dedicated training centers run by the Owners’ Groups (BWR, PWR). •The SAT methods: The IAEA proposed SAT (Systematic Approach to Training) approach is applied to the training of the operating staff and the maintenance staff. It is structured in a flow of Job analysis ? Training program design ?Training material development ?Training ? Evaluation. •Training in real situations: An example is a trainee actually hung with a lifeline on a harness to learn a method of putting on the lifeline. On the other hand, the efficiency (availability) of the training facilities for maintenance work is very limited, because each electric company installs the training facilities individually. Experiences of ICONE-16 participants from other countries in improving the availability are of our interest.

Session: 12-1 Training the Workforce

Alan, your theory that we need a vast workforce with years of specialized nuclear training is totally contradicted by the history of technological progress. You consistently duck the key questions that make this contradiction obvious.

1… If nuclear experience is so important, why did the early plants go up faster and at much lower cost than later plants?

2… How big was the experience pool and knowledge base in nuclear weapons in 1941?

3… How did we produce two working weapon designs and production facilities by 1945 starting with zero experienced nuclear weapons workers?

4… How did Ford ramp up the mass production of cars using workers with no prior experience in a mass production factory environment?

5… How big was the experience pool in moon landings before Kennedy said we are going there?

6… How many have died due to the low safety standards of our 104 plants?

7… How many nuclear plants would we have if fossil fuel had to pay for the full cost of the damage their emissions do?

8… List all of the “good reasons” for higher safety standards and calculate how many lives will be saved by the higher standards that make plants more expensive and keep us dependent on fossil fuel longer.

8a… How many lives would have been saves if our 104 plants had been built to those higher standards?

A pipe fitter with 30 years experience in coal and natural gas fired plants is not qualified to build nukes. He does not understand the system and that "good enough" is *NOT* good enough for a nuke !

9… What was the prior experience of welders who built the early nuclear plants?

10… How many people have been killed by bad welds in nuclear plants?

{sigh}for such a nuke advocate, you know so VERY little about building nukes…

Nuclear power plants are built on the aviation model…

Think of those 104 nukes as being coal plants built by Boeing, to the same standards as their 737s, 787s and satellites . Built by aerospace workers and not auto workers.

Alan, it is you who does not seem to know how nuclear plants are built. The correct statement is

“Nuclear power plants SHOULD be built on the aviation model.”

11… When was the last time Boeing built a jumbo jet outdoors in the middle of a Mississippi swamp using contractors from all over the country?

But you point to the safety record of plants that were continually improving their safety and built to ever higher standards while advocating abolishing those standards.

12… Show us a graph of the high accident rate and death toll of early plants built by inexperienced workers.

Actually the U.S. did have a facility to build nuclear power plants like Boeing builds jumbo jets.

http://www.atomicinsights.com/aug96/Offshore.html

Allowing Offshore Power Systems to die was one of our biggest mistakes.

If we built two such facilities on each coast and ramped them up to five plants per year each that would be 20 plants per year, some of which could be sold overseas to help balance our trade deficit.

There was no market for Offshore Systems, so keeping them around would have been a white elephant.

And ships sink (attractive terrorist targets too !). Ship based nukes provide a new safety risk and I find them generally unacceptable until PROVEN, beyond a shadow of a doubt, otherwise.

Alan

AFAIK, eight nuclear subs have sunk and not been recovered. It doesn't amount to much of a problem, it seems.

None were in shallow waters close to population centers.

And all were much smaller than typical power reactors.

Alan

If such a reactor sinks in shallow waters, I guess you'd retrieve it and restart it.

Having seen the effects of submerging "just about everything" in saline water for week in New Orleans, I am *SURE* that such a sunk reactor would be scrapped.

Alan

Having seen what can be done to make boats un-sinkable by filling spaces with materials like styrofoam, I doubt that a properly designed floating reactor could be sunk, period.

According to your judgment, we do not need safe nukes. We have TOO much safety, according to you.

The rest of society disagrees with you. Your judgment in other areas is suspect as well (Radiation is good for you).

Your examples seem to suggest that primitive reactors built to the war time standards of 1945 should get NRC licenses to operate for 80 years today.

Once the full dimensions of a large scale nuclear accident became apparent, the aviation model of construction was adopted for new nukes. I am QUITE surprised that you are not aware of this fundamental decision made (in the mid or late 1960s ?). This is the cornerstone of nuclear regulation in the USA (which even if you disagree with, you should have been aware of).

As for premature deaths, coal is not the greatest villain. BY YOUR METRICS, we should spend your first few hundred billion on what I propose and make new nukes a secondary priority (as I do propose).

Automobiles & trucks killed 43,313 people directly in 2008. Hundreds of thousands of life altering injuries. They created a majority of air pollution, and that pollution was concentrated in major urban areas where they would hurt as many people as possible.

If delayed deaths from auto injuries and pollution deaths are included, they killed well over 100,000 people in the USA in 2008.

In addition, walking and bicycling cure obesity. People that bicycle to work live 10 years longer on average (+12 years health, -2 years accidents).

I propose a few hundred billion for electrifying railroads (and shifting most freight to them), Urban rail, bicycling and walkable neighborhoods.

Best Hopes,

Alan

I propose a few hundred billion for electrifying railroads (and shifting most freight to them), Urban rail, bicycling and walkable neighborhoods.

I don't think any of us pro-nuke advocates disagree with that.

Best hopes indeed!

THANKS !

I think that salvation for the USA lies in diverting several % of GDP from consumption (including real estate consumption) to investment in long lived energy producing or energy efficient infrastructure.

IMO, new nukes are part of that. Just not the leading or most important part. I see higher priorities.

I do support spending (my SWAG) $50 billion# to finish Watts Bar 2 and six new nukes within the decade. Perhaps these nukes will not be economic, but it allows for an economic second wave of new nukes. And from a societal POV, that makes it a worthwhile investment.

Alan

# Some #s run around in this thread make me wonder if I am low balling with my $50 billion estimate (I came up with that around 2005).

I think that salvation for the USA lies in diverting several % of GDP from consumption (including real estate consumption) to investment in long lived energy producing or energy efficient infrastructure.<(i>

IMO, new nukes are part of that. Just not the leading or most important part. I see higher priorities.


Agreed!

Nukes do after all produce power, which isn't really the big problem. Transportation is.

Why have you posted this as a response to my comment? You have not answered any of the 12 questions asked.

I answered your questions in summary.

I do not have the time or interest to debate this on your extreme framing. Your logic, your views and your values are simply outside the social and scientific consensus.

I can never convince you of anything, it is just the others that I want to keep from, being mislead.

Alan

PS: I AM surprised that you did not know that nuke safety was based on the aviation model. But this explains why you think miniature 1945 reactors have any relevance to the possible future build rate.

You seem highly committed to the belief that our nuclear plants were built on the “aviation model.” Provide references explaining what the ‘aviation model” is and how those plants were built to that model.

Provide more than a “summary” answer to this question.

11… When was the last time Boeing built a jumbo jet outdoors in the middle of a Mississippi swamp using contractors from all over the country?

I was taught while in training at River Bend nuclear power plant about the aviation model, which later practice confirmed.

Also mentioned during my tour as a student of Brown's Ferry while under construction.

Your question #11 is nonsensical.

Alan

NQA-1 is largely a subset of ISO 9001.

The requirements of the Quality Assurance parts of 10 CFR are a copy of similar regs for aviation.

http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part050/part050-appb.html

The Finns had problems pouring the concrete for the foundation of their new EPR (from memory). Who in the USA has supervised pouring the foundation for new nuke ? Every last one of them is in their 70s, 80s or dead. We can expect the same problems that the Finns had.

Or you could design your new nuclear powerplants to use thicker layers of lower strenght concrete that has other benificial properties such as easier to blend, easier to pour and less likely to crack. It took me less then a minute to figure out a potential solution to this problem when I heard about it but I dont know the details that drive the foundation and concrete specifications.

But you are right that the first generation of plants will take longer to build then the following plants when you can apply the lessons learned from building the new designs.

Anyone who has been around newly graduated engineers knows that they are dangerous if not supervised. And who will supervise them ?

If Americans can't hack it, bring in senior French engineers to run your first batch of plant construction projects. After all, you could see it as payback from the French for borrowing the PWR design from the US Navy. Some of the French might even like La Nouvelle-Orléans so much they stay and join the local Cajuns. ;)

Veolia (from France) has taken over management of our local transit agency. Requests for site visits and transfers have been pouring in ! *VERY* few problems in tapping expertise from the home office in Paris :-)

Perhaps. I know a senior staff working at the Falcon jet fitting plant in Little Rock. The Americans there get along well with the engineers from Dassault (as long as politics are not mentioned; the French did not think much of GWB).

However, heavy construction has it's own ethic and culture. Not sure about French engineers and American workers there ....

Alan

First of all the only way to really raise efficiency of a heat engine is to raise its operating temperature and that reduces its safety; given the huge size of commercial plants significantly higher temperatures pose engineering problems.
What if 1000 MW units must be replaced by two 500 MW units or even smaller?

It would be good to highlight the problems inherent in breeder reactors.

The attraction is that they make their own fuel--extending their operation but they burn fuel up quicker than they make it.

In a once-thru breeder operating with a conversion ratio of 1, the amount of fuel overtime would reduce simply by the build up of fusion products and the reduction of input fertile material, not to mention the build up of reactor 'poisons'(absorber isotopes).

One problem with thermal breeders is that the conversion/breed ratio falls when the burn up rate rises in a normally moderated reactor(which is why fast breeders are not moderated with water).

A thorium/uranium LW breeder reactor with a CR of 1 would typically get about 40% of its energy from U-233 bred from thorium, the rest would come from the inital breeding medium of
U-235.

http://www-pub.iaea.org/MTCD/publications/PDF/TE_1450_web.pdf

A downside would be that the once thru waste would be more radioactive than normal reactor spent fuel as U-233 is a very strong gamma emitter.

The way that fast breeders get around these problems is by
using lead, sodium, or liquid salt to raise the conversion ratio at high burn up.

However high burnup means high products of fusion and 'waste' which require continuous removal and 'reprocessing' to recover the bred fuel.

Reprocessing has not been successful to up now. It is as energy intensive as uranium processing and more dangerous as it handles reactor waste.

In current technology at most the amount of energy that would come out of a breeder from bred materials is 70% with the other 30% coming from the initial starter fuel, U-235.

There is also the problem that in breeders the amount of U-235 is about 20%, not the usual 4% as in LWR and a large amount of energy is required to produce almost pure U-235.

All this points to the conclusion that fission breeders will simply extend uranium supplies by one or two cycles at most.

The idea that fission breeders will extend their fuel infinitely is a delusion IMO.

First of all the only way to really raise efficiency of a heat engine is to raise its operating temperature and that reduces its safety;

Early steam engines operated at low temperature and pressure yet killed people quite regularly. A low pressure high temperature molten salt reactor would be vastly safer than the low temperature high pressure Chernobyl reactor.

The attraction is that they make their own fuel--extending their operation but they burn fuel up quicker than they make it.

Breeders are called breeders because they make more fissile material than they consume.

In a once-thru breeder…

No such thing.

One problem with thermal breeders is that the conversion/breed ratio falls when the burn up rate rises in a normally moderated reactor(which is why fast breeders are not moderated with water).

A well designed breeder, fast with uranium or thermal with thorium, can split over 99% of the atoms mined to fuel them.

For example, to produce a lifetime supply of electricity for an average American with fission we must split 5.4 ounces of uranium or thorium. Today we mine 58 lb. of uranium to do that. With well designed breeders we would mine less than 6 ounces.

A fast breeder moderated with water would no longer be fast or a breeder

However high burnup means high products of fusion and 'waste' which require continuous removal and 'reprocessing' to recover the bred fuel.

Today we produce about 9 lb. of spent fuel per lifetime supply of electricity in the U.S. containing 5.4 ounces of fission products and a few ounces of plutonium that require 130,000 years to become less radiotoxic than uranium ore. With well designed breeders the waste product would be 5.4 ounces of fission products dissolved in a few pounds of glass or rock. It will be less radiotoxic than uranium ore in 270 years. Actually high temperature breeder reactors will consume even less fuel due to improved thermodynamic efficiency.

Reprocessing has not been successful to up now. It is as energy intensive as uranium processing and more dangerous as it handles reactor waste.

I do not support reprocessing at this time because uranium is very inexpensive, but the French have been doing it successfully for years. The routine operation of coal plants kill 30,000 Americans per year, how many French die from reprocessing each year?

All this points to the conclusion that fission breeders will simply extend uranium supplies by one or two cycles at most.
The idea that fission breeders will extend their fuel infinitely is a delusion IMO.

There are dozens of ways to split uranium and thorium atoms. If you perform an analysis assuming the worst technology you get unfavorable results.

My recommendation is to push every possible technology as hard as possible, build prototypes of everything, and pick the BEST technology.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/4961#comment-459021

A low pressure high temperature molten salt reactor would be vastly safer than the low temperature high pressure Chernobyl reactor.

And you base that on what operating commercial plant? As far as I know most PWR(pressurized water reactors) use water well above
"low pressure".

Breeders are called breeders because they make more fissile material than they consume.

That's about as logical as saying families with one child don't have any children.

All reactors breed to some extent.
About 25% of the energy in a LWR comes from plutonium bred in the reactor.

No such thing[once-thru breeder]....I do not support reprocessing at this time because uranium is very inexpensive, but the French have been doing it successfully for years.

You can't have it both ways. Either the reactor is once-thru or there's reprocessing.

Think about the difficulty of reprocessing highly radioactive fuel---gravimetrically separating nearly identical isotopes of nearly identical weight. In uranium processing U-235 is separated from slightly heavier U-238. The Iranians have been trying for years.

As for the French reprocessing 'success',
http://www.fissilematerials.org/ipfm/site_down/rr04.pdf

A well designed breeder, fast with uranium or thermal with thorium, can split over 99% of the atoms mined to fuel them.

Please document this statement!!
You appear to be a nuclear cornucopian.

And you base that on what operating commercial plant? As far as I know most PWR(pressurized water reactors) use water well above
"low pressure".

If you use molten salt coolants you're operating at atmospheric pressure. We did this with the ORNL MSBR experiment decades ago.

That's about as logical as saying families with one child don't have any children.

All reactors breed to some extent.
About 25% of the energy in a LWR comes from plutonium bred in the reactor.

Yes, LWRs have breeding ratios of about .6, and CANDUs have breeding ratios of about .8. But unless you have a breeding ratio above 1 your reactor isn't considered a breeder, its considered a burner. If it has a breeding ratio of exactly 1 its considered a converter.

You can't have it both ways. Either the reactor is once-thru or there's reprocessing.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Once through vs reprocessing is fuel cycle whereas breeder vs burner is the reactor itself. Technically you could have a reactor with a breeding ratio above 1 where you throw all the bred fuel away, but no one would do this.

Think about the difficulty of reprocessing highly radioactive fuel---gravimetrically separating nearly identical isotopes of nearly identical weight. In uranium processing U-235 is separated from slightly heavier U-238. The Iranians have been trying for years.

No they haven't. No one does isotopic seperation of spent fuel.

No they haven't. No one does isotopic seperation of spent fuel.

If you want to extract 99% of the energy from waste as many here have claimed, you have to.

They use PUREX to separate plutonium from uranium.

Typically plutonium plus actinides is 1% of nuclear waste versus 3.5% fission products. The rest is uranium and the .5% U-235 fuel that is left can only be separated by gravimetric methods.

Lighter fissionable products are separated by weight. Plutonium is active fuel but the separable uranium with various actinides is slightly less fertile than natural uranium.

The total non-military inventory of reprocessed plutonium of the French nuclear is 320 tons of plutonium and 45000 tons of separable uranium. This could be made into about 10000 tons of reactor fuel for a typical LWR and 35000 tons of useless separable uranium. This amounts to about fuel for 360 1 GW LWR reactors for 1 year.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf69.html#References

In a fast breeder reactors where the charges are typically 20% plutonium or U-235 this amounts to 1650 tons of fuel which 165 1 GW fast breeder reactors.

The fact is the only way a small number of fission breeders can
exist is off the reprocessed waste stream of a huge numbers of LWRs because their fuel is

Separating thorium from U-233 is more difficult than plutonium from uranium and the Indians have given up on molten salt breeder reactors.

"The thorium-uranium 233 cycle in fast breeders does not appear attractive, and for the uranium 238-plutonium cycle, only metallic fuel offers hope of a relatively fast doubling and reprocessing time. To increase the share of nuclear power in the coming decades, India should consider the construction of a number of large thermal reactors based on indigenous and imported uranium and also the design, development and validation of reactors that operate with thorium-plutonium fuels,"

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Thorium_Reactors_Integral_To_Indian_...

If you want to extract 99% of the energy from waste as many here have claimed, you have to (do isotopic separation on spent fuel).

No, none of the various fuel cycles that achieve high fuel burn-up and low waste production require isotopic separation on spent fuel. In a fast spectrum breeder, there's no need to separate U235 and U238. The U235 fissions, and the U238 is converted to plutonium and then fissions. All that's needed is to remove the fission daughter products that would otherwise accumulate and poison the reactor's neutron economy.

The total non-military inventory of reprocessed plutonium of the French nuclear is 320 tons of plutonium and 45000 tons of separable uranium. This could be made into about 10000 tons of reactor fuel for a typical LWR and 35000 tons of useless separable uranium.

What do you mean by "separable uranium"? And "useless separable uranium"? I'll take your word on the 320 tons of plutonium and 45000 tons of uranium recovered from spent fuel; that sounds about the right ratio. And the 45000 tons of recovered uranium, after a 4.5x enrichment would indeed yield about 10,000 tons of uranium, at about the right enrichment level to fuel a conventional LWR. But if it's intended to be used in a fast spectrum reactor, there's no need for enrichment -- and no need to waste the 35000 tons of depleted uranium that enrichment would otherwise leave. The entire 45320 tons of plutonium and uranium is grist for the fast spectrum mill.

The fact is the only way a small number of fission breeders can
exist is off the reprocessed waste stream of a huge numbers of LWRs because their fuel is

Did you leave that as a sentence fragment because you meant to delete it? Because it is, in fact, nonsense.

Separating thorium from U-233 is more difficult than plutonium from uranium and the Indians have given up on molten salt breeder reactors.

The Indians, AFAIK, have never had any program for molten salt reactors -- at least not in the form they're currently being discussed. (I.e., with molten uranium fluoride salts as the reactor fuel.) If they've looked at molten salts at all, it's been simply as the coolant in a high temperature reactor with conventional solid fuel rods. In the context of the liquid fluoride thorium reactor, uranium is almost trivially easy to separate from the thorium tetrafluoride in the breeder blanket. Just bubble a little fluorine gas through the molten salt, and the uranium comes off as UF6 gas.

In the context of a reactor design with solid fuel rod assemblies with thorium oxide pellets, I can well imagine that separation of the bred U233 would be problematic. That would be a stupid design.

No one does isotopic seperation of spent fuel.

If you want to extract 99% of the energy from waste as many here have claimed, you have to.

They use PUREX to separate plutonium from uranium.

PUREX is a chemical separation process, not an isotopic separation process.  (We now have superior processes to PUREX, such as pyroprocessing, which does not involve organic solvents and does not lead to the waste problems such as at Hanford.)

Separating thorium from U-233 is more difficult than plutonium from uranium

Uranium is easily removed from a mixture of thorium fluoride and other salts by fluorination.  This converts the UF3 and UF4 to UF6, which is a gas at STP.  The UF6 is converted back to UF4 by reacting with hydrogen:
UF6 + H2 -> UF4 + 2HF

You have demonstrated that you have no idea what you are talking about.  Please go remedy your ignorance before coming back to this discussion.

Uranium is easily removed from a mixture of thorium fluoride and other salts by fluorination. This converts the UF3 and UF4 to UF6, which is a gas at STP. The UF6 is converted back to UF4 by reacting with hydrogen:
UF6 + H2 -> UF4 + 2HF----Poetical troll

You're back to your arrogant, blustering old self, PT--fact checker extraordinaire!

You obviously don't know how they remove thorium from uranium.
They use the Acid-Thorex process or the PUREX method neither of which has anything to do with fluoride.

https://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/htgr/fulltext/iwggcr8_26.pdf

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bk-1980-0117.ch026

You have demonstrated that you have no idea what you are talking about. Please go remedy your ignorance before coming back to this discussion.

Right. :-D

You obviously don't know the difference between gaseous diffusion of UF6 to separate U-235 from U-238 and the acid processes to separate plutonium or thorium from uranium.

This whole thing started, Poetical Troll when this statement was made,

A well designed breeder, fast with uranium or thermal with thorium, can split over 99% of the atoms mined to fuel them.

To which I replied,

Think about the difficulty of reprocessing highly radioactive fuel---gravimetrically separating nearly identical isotopes of nearly identical weight. In uranium processing U-235 is separated from slightly heavier U-238. The Iranians have been trying for years.........Please document this statement!![above]
You appear to be a nuclear cornucopian.

I was talking about splitting 99% of the atoms! There is no such reprocessing on this planet. All they do is try to recover plutonium by PUREX. In a LWR waste that is .9% of the spent fuel, the .5% of the fuel being U-235 in the separated uranium and .1% actinides.

Of course leave it to you to misread the entire exchange and them insert some nonsense about UF6.

As far as the comment about India giving up on molten salt reactors...

"The thorium-uranium 233 cycle in fast breeders does not appear attractive, and for the uranium 238-plutonium cycle, only metallic fuel offers hope of a relatively fast doubling and reprocessing time. To increase the share of nuclear power in the coming decades, India should consider the construction of a number of large thermal reactors based on indigenous and imported uranium and also the design, development and validation of reactors that operate with thorium-plutonium fuels," they add.
--Dr.Arunachalam, India government nuke expert(previously posted by me)

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Thorium_Reactors_Integral_To_Indian_...

The Indians do not intend to pursue the use of U-233 fast breeders(non-thermal breeders like salt reactors) and want to use thorium-plutonium in LWRs.

SO YES ROGER, I WAS CORRECT. THE INDIANS DON'T WANT MOLTEN SALT THORIUM BREEDERS. That should tell you something about the concept.

The fact is the only way a small number of fission breeders can
exist is off the reprocessed waste stream of a huge numbers of LWRs because their fuel is...

Did you leave that as a sentence fragment because you meant to delete it? Because it is, in fact, nonsense.

Yeah, I must have deleted that part inadvertantly but no, it is not nonsense.

You don't understand HOW fast breeders would work in practice.

Here I am REPOSTING for the THIRD time an article about how fast breeders would work in the nuclear system of 2050.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/pdf/nuclearpower-ch4-9.pdf

Notice Table 4-3 and Fig 4-3, with LWRs feeding FBRs.
Notice (in the example)out of 16235 tons of fuel fed to the LWR, you get 14285 tons of separable uranium. That's not 99% burn up or 70% burn up, but a measley 12% burn up using the technology of 2050. This report was put out by the pre-eminient nuke school in the USA, MIT.

But nuclear cornucopians(assisted by pompous trolls) insist they can burn up literally millions of tons of uranium and that total reprocessing is simple as pie.

The detachment from reality of the nuke cornucopians is complete.

You don't understand HOW fast breeders would work in practice.

Here I am REPOSTING for the THIRD time an article about how fast breeders would work in the nuclear system of 2050.

http://web.mit.edu/nuclearpower/pdf/nuclearpower-ch4-9.pdf

Notice Table 4-3 and Fig 4-3, with LWRs feeding FBRs.
Notice (in the example)out of 16235 tons of fuel fed to the LWR, you get 14285 tons of separable uranium.

It helps to also read the text.

It is important to note that this balanced closed fuel cycle is entirely different from breeder fast reactor fuel cycles

I.e. they're talking about fast reactors, but not fast breeder reactors. The two words are not synonymous.

They explain why they're not talking about breeder reactors:

For example, according to the Australian Uranium Information Center,a doubling of the uranium price from its current value of about $30/kgU could be expected to create about a ten-fold increase in known resources recoverable at costs < $80/kgU i.e.,from about 3 to 30 million tonnes. By comparison, a fleet of 1500 1000 MWe reactors operating for 50 years requires about 15 million tonnes of uranium (306,000 MTU/yr as indicated in Table 4.2), using conventional assumptions about burn-up and enrichment.

...
In sum, we conclude that resource utilization is not a pressing reason for proceeding to reprocessing and breeding for many years to come.

Marjorian,

If you want to contribute the discussion, it would help if you'd work on your reading comprehension.

EP's statement about separation of uranium from thorium was made in the context of the liquid fluoride thorium reactor. It was entirely correct. The paper you referenced describes a process for separating uranium and thorium in the context of a fast spectrum breeder reactor using mixed oxide solid fuel elements. Totally different type of reactor, and and a vastly more challenging chemical separation. Thorium oxide is uber-stable, and hard to dissolve.

As to the Indian reactor program, the article you linked is quite correct in its headline, "Thorium Reactors Integral to Indian Energy Independence". But the thorium cycle on which India has been focused is a fast spectrum breeder design with solid oxide fuel. I don't know much about the politics and technical factors that led them to that selection. I'd guess that they were following the mainstreaming thinking about fast plutonium breeders that prevailed twenty years ago, when the program was initiated. Thorium can be bred to U233 in a fast spectrum reactor that also breeds U238 into plutonium, and it involves what may have been seen as small tweaks to familiar technology. But I don't know that. There was no information in the article that explained it, or even gave any indication what alternatives were evaluated.

SO YES ROGER, I WAS CORRECT. THE INDIANS DON'T WANT MOLTEN SALT THORIUM BREEDERS. That should tell you something about the concept.

LOL! That's quite a leap! There's nothing in the article you referenced that says anything at all about liquid fluoride reactors. Your statement boils down to "They're not doing it, therefore they must have performed a competent technical evaluation and found that it flawed".

An equally plausible alternative is that they were simply unaware of the work done at Oak Ridge on liquid fluoride reactors, and never considered that approach. For political reasons, that work was pretty well buried. I certainly had never heard about it, until Kirk Sorenson dusted it off and put it on the web. But if you know of anything that explains how India arrived at its current nuclear program and what options they evaluated, I'd be very interested in hearing about it.

Roger,

Thanks for prefacing your response with an ad hominem.
That's typical troll behavior and pretty much regular fare at TOD going by EP.

Thorium Oxide dissolves in 13 M nitric acid with .05 M HF as is explained in the Acid-Thorex process the article you didn't bother to read. So EP's (and your)chemistry is wrong.

Here it is again.
https://www.iaea.org/inisnkm/nkm/aws/htgr/fulltext/iwggcr8_26.pdf

As for the position of the Indian government which just reversed course away from thorium breeders after over 30 years of investigation, you dismiss it with "So what?" and point to an
7.4 MW thermal experiment that ended 30 years ago. Oh yes, and Fuji is planning a 100 MW molten salt reactor. Of course you never read the link I provided which explains that the conversion rate for thorium fast breeders is to low for India, who are sticking with uranium.

Here I post the India link yet again.

"The thorium-uranium 233 cycle in fast breeders does not appear attractive, and for the uranium 238-plutonium cycle, only metallic fuel offers hope of a relatively fast doubling and reprocessing time....
Kalam's recommendation assumes importance in the wake of debates taking place in India over the efficacy of thorium as opposed to uranium for the country's fast-breeder reactors. This debate has been going on within the Indian scientific fraternity for almost a decade.

http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Thorium_Reactors_Integral_To_Indian_...

Kirk Sorenson and the good folks at thoriumpower, who have much to gain by the mere rumor of anyone doing anything in thorium nukes. Do you own any stock in thoriumpower.com?
http://www.thoriumpower.com/

BTW, I have sole ownership a bridge over the East River in New York City you may be interested in buying.

Thanks for prefacing your response with an ad hominem.

Don't be such a child; Ad hominemns are attempts to discredit the argument by discrediting the person. Roger simply said you aren't reading what he wrote, and you still arent.

Thorium Oxide dissolves in 13 M nitric acid with .05 M HF as is explained in the Acid-Thorex process the article you didn't bother to read. So EP's (and your)chemistry is wrong.

Not even wrong. Roger and EP are talking about fluorination processes, while you're bringing up aqueous processes. They aren't even the same thing.

Kalam's recommendation assumes importance in the wake of debates taking place in India over the efficacy of thorium as opposed to uranium for the country's fast-breeder reactors. This debate has been going on within the Indian scientific fraternity for almost a decade.

Sure, because fast breeders are completely unnecissary except for doing actinide incineration. Doubling time and other ridiculous arguments are based on the notion we'll be facing an imminent shortage of fissile material.

You aren't even keeping your arguments coherent. I cant even tell what you're arguing against.

Kirk Sorenson and the good folks at thoriumpower, who have much to gain by the mere rumor of anyone doing anything in thorium nukes. Do you own any stock in thoriumpower.com?

Hah. If you even went to Kirks blog, you would know the opinion there is near universal that thoriumpower.com guys aren't related at all. They deal with fuel fabrication.

A low pressure high temperature molten salt reactor would be vastly safer than the low temperature high pressure Chernobyl reactor.
And you base that on what operating commercial plant?

I base that on the fact that MSR’s can run on a minimal load of fissile fuel and have no positive reactivity temperature coefficients that could drive them to power levels 100 times rated power in a few seconds.

Water moderated reactors have similar inherently safe qualities. There have been no Chernobyl like accidents with water moderated reactors.

What examples of high temperature equating to high risk do you base your opinion on.

Breeders are called breeders because they make more fissile material than they consume.
That's about as logical as saying families with one child don't have any children.

Converter reactors with a conversion ratio equal or greater than one are called breeders.

You can't have it both ways. Either the reactor is once-thru or there's reprocessing.
Think about the difficulty of reprocessing highly radioactive fuel---gravimetrically separating nearly identical isotopes of nearly identical weight. In uranium processing U-235 is separated from slightly heavier U-238. The Iranians have been trying for years.

Separating plutonium from uranium is easy; uranium from thorium is even easier.

I recommend using the cheapest technology. For the next hundred years or so, that will probably be a factory mass produced modular Molten Salt reactors running on a once through fuel cycle. That gives us plenty of time to develop breeders. When breeder technology can compete on a level playing field with all externalities included, we should make the switch. The accumulated spent fuel will keep them running for thousands of years.

A well designed breeder, fast with uranium or thermal with thorium, can split over 99% of the atoms mined to fuel them.
Please document this statement!!
You appear to be a nuclear cornucopian.

Here is part of a general discussion of the IFR.

“The way the IFR fuel cycle would work would be: you could start with mined uranium, or you could start with fuel for present day reactors. Either one would do perfectly well. It's left in the metal form because metal is a particularly easy thing to fabricate. And so you cast it into uranium. They're put in steel jackets and loaded into the reactor. They stay in there about three to four years, and when they come out, they're put through a very simple process. One step separates out the useful materials. And then cast the metal again back into fuel that go right back into the reactor. The material that's left behind is the true, the natural waste.
Q: The fission products.
A: Fission products. But none of the long-lived toxic elements like plutonium and americium or curium, the so-called manmade elements. They're the long-lived toxic ones. And they're recycled back into the reactor ... and work every bit as well as plutonium.”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/reaction/interviews/till.html

Collection efficiencies close to 100% have been achieved in laboratory-scale tests of the liquid cadmium cathode. A typical liquid cadmium cathode deposit contains approximately 3 kg Pu and minor actinides, together with a small quantity (several hundred ppm) of the rare earth fission products.

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/servlets/purl/10185588-Su5o1L/101855...

Several hundred ppm is less than 1000 ppm which is 1 part per thousand which is 0.1%. So separation efficiency is better than 99.9%.

Since the role of chief nitpicker seems to have fallen to me, I have to get this one too:

Collection efficiencies close to 100% have been achieved in laboratory-scale tests of the liquid cadmium cathode. A typical liquid cadmium cathode deposit contains approximately 3 kg Pu and minor actinides, together with a small quantity (several hundred ppm) of the rare earth fission products.

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/servlets/purl/10185588-Su5o1L/101855...

Several hundred ppm is less than 1000 ppm which is 1 part per thousand which is 0.1%. So separation efficiency is better than 99.9%.

In all fairness, that figure is for waste products included with recovered fuel (Pu), not fuel isotopes lost with the waste.  As a way of making the reclaimed fuel impossible to divert it's good, but it doesn't bear on the question of how much of the original fuel supply is actually used to make energy.

In all fairness, that figure is for waste products included with recovered fuel (Pu), not fuel isotopes lost with the waste.

True. Consider this.

“Only 13% of the rare earths was removed, while 99.9% of the uranium in the salt was removed;
subsequently, the rare earths were also reduced to low concentrations. The uranium concentration
in the salt was reduced to 0.05 ppm after uranium and rare earths were transferred from
the salt to a solid mandrel cathode with a catch crucible. Rare earth concentrations in the salt
were reduced to less than 0.01 wt % in these operations.”

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10129897-ND4siI/native/10129897...

How about this.

“Preliminary, calculations have been performed for a PT/C System application to the Hanford Site
single-shell tank waste stream (of approximately 200,000 Mg, including added water), by assuming
that a PT/C System would be capable of complete dissociation of the input feed and a 99% separation
efficiency of all elements above 80 amu.”

http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/10185294-0vgomC/10185294.pdf

The efficient separation and recycle of heavy atoms with more than 99% efficiency has been demonstrated. It is just chemistry. High purity separation processes are common in many industries.

My recommendation is to push every possible technology as hard as possible, build prototypes of everything, and pick the BEST technology.

Nuclear power has dominated government spending on energy research and development, accounting for over US$159 billion between 1974 and 1998. Although its share has fallen, it still accounts for 51% of the OECD energy R&D budget:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/sym/2001/fig-htm/frasf6-h.htm

People may not be willing to continue to spend that much on R&D for nuclear energy.

Most people don't actually care whether the warm shower water was heated on ones roof or in an efficient co-generation plant or a heat pump and whether this heat pump simply replaced a wasteful electric heater and thus saved electricity or was powered by some photovoltaics on the roof, wind, csp, hydro, geothermal, biomass or nuclear.

The question on most people's mind is not:
What can the world do to save and expand nuclear.

The question is:
What can the world do to provide every body with a warm shower and a hot coffee.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6176229.stm

What can the world do to provide every body with a warm shower and a hot coffee.

And a washing machine. Washing by hand really sucks, but people don't seem to care becasue women usually have to do it. Throw in a refrigerator, electric lightning and a stove for good measure.

Actually it's all in there.

And a washing machine doesn't in fact require a lot of energy when its warm water is already provided for (e.g. from the roof, geothermal, efficient heat pump, waste heat etc.) and modern fabrics should not be washed above 40 C anyway.

Efficient lighting hardly requires any energy compared to the energy needed to heat or cool a building.

And this 165 Liter freezer has an average power consumption of 0.005 kW.

http://www.greenboxusa.com/Default.aspx?tabid=1075&CategoryID=230&List=0...

How do you post pictures like that? My img-tags always seem to end in FAIL.

Thanks.

That pie chart may be valid for the UK, but not for much of the rest of the world.

Alan

So most of the rest of the world doesn't take hot showers or warm baths?

And most of the rest of world doesn't require heat energy to either heat or cool buildings?

Btw, Solarthermal modules are not only used to heat but also to cool buildings:
http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/download/solar_energy_for_heating...
http://www.solarcool.com/index.php?article_id=1&clang=2

The percentages in the pie chart are representative of the UK (and probably generally applicable to Germany as well), but they are quite out of line for Los Angeles, New Orleans, San Paulo, Mexico City, Rome, etc.

Alan (I use a tankless gas water heater and hope to add a solar supplement).

My recommendation is to push every possible technology as hard as possible, build prototypes of everything, and pick the BEST technology.

My recommendation is that we:

Have a Rush to Wind, HV DC and pumped storage (and more geothermal and solar)

Dramatically increase efficiency in our economy (housing, industry, commerce).

as a subset of above:

Build out an efficient Non-Oil Transportation system using electrified railroads, Urban Rail, bicycles and walkable communities (see obesity post recently on TOD).

Finish Watts Bar 2, build six new nukes in the USA (preferably three different designs) and buy a % of a new nuke or two in Ontario in the next ten years. And towards the end of that decade decide how many new nukes in the second decade (10 to 30 is my SWAG, hopefully closer to 30).

We have spent *FAR* too much already on nuke R&D in the last half century. Any new tech will take several decades to gain enough operating experience to be safety and otherwise competitive with existing, evolving designs.

New nuke R&D is simply a waste of scarce resources. Still 51% of OECD energy R&D (quoted elsewhere in this thread).

Figuring out better and cheaper means of building R-60 walls is not as sexy as new tech nukes, but it has more social value (and costs FAR less !)

Best Hopes for Better R&D Spending,

Alan

My recommendation is that we:
Have a Rush to Wind, HV DC and pumped storage (and more geothermal and solar)

I acknowledge I might be wrong. That is why we should build prototypes of everything and pick the best on a level playing field. Could you be wrong?

We have spent *FAR* too much already on nuke R&D in the last half century. We have spent *FAR* too much already on nuke R&D in the last half century.

The DOE spends a lot of money on military nuclear issues. There are far better ways to split uranium and thorium atoms than steroidal submarine reactors. How many new experimental commercial power reactor prototypes has DOE built since the 70’s?

Taxes and fees collected by the government on commercial nuclear power far exceed R&D money spent developing new commercial reactors. Quite the opposite with wind and solar.

There are MUCH better uses for the tens/hundreds of billions required to build nuke prototypes of everything. Nuke R&D spending has hogged the energy R&D budget for half a century already.

Unlike with new types of nukes, there is no technological risk with what I propose. Since there is no technological risk, this significantly reduces that chance that I am wrong. So, you could be wrong, but not I >:-)

DoE has spent their nuke R&D money largely as the nuke industry wanted them too. Don't look at me, but at the nuke industry if the R&D money was misspent. 50 years and hundreds of billions (in 2009 $) spent. Sorry if there is very little to show for it.

I question your figures. New nukes get the same incentives as new wind. I see GWs of new wind coming on-line every year. I see no new nukes, just talk and some paperwork. As a practical matter new wind >>> new nukes.

Alan

With well designed breeders the waste product would be 5.4 ounces of fission products dissolved in a few pounds of glass or rock. It will be less radiotoxic than uranium ore in 270 years.

If the lifespan is that short, using a glass or ceramic matrix makes no sense; the goal is to prevent the escape of radiotoxic materials until they have decayed, and a system designed to last hundreds of thousands of years is wasted on products which barely last a quarter-millenium.  The fission products include platinum-group metals which are extremely valuable, so the waste should be packaged in e.g. stainless-steel capsules until it is desirable to recover them.

The engineering calculations are straightforward, if rather complex. What error have you found in them that shows that thermal efficiecny will not reach the levels prognosticated?

also do you really want to make a big point of a change from 33% to 37% ??
Well, it's a 12 % rise, or about 320 TWh. Only 12 nations out of about 180 consume more power than that, and it's more than the total power consumption of Italy. I'd say powering all of Italy qualifies as a big point, and I'd guess Enel would agree.

Dear jeppen,

Second, and this is important, when energy extraction is 50 times better, you can obviously(?) use ores 50 times more diluted.

Sorry, this doesn't follow. You still need to enrich the ore above a critical value before it will be able to go (just sub-)critical.

In a breeder reactor, the reason you can use more diluted ores is because you clad the reactor with unenriched (or depleted) uranium-238 or thorium-232. These are then converted by the excess neutrons respectively into either Pu239 or U233. This can then be chemically separated from the cladding material (because it's a different element instead of just a different isotope -- also the reason why they pose more of a proliferation concern; massive centrifuges are unnecessary to enrich the material).

However, your statement that you can use 50 times more diluted starting uranium if it is used 50 times better is practically a nonsequiter in this context. You still have to extract the uranium from the starting ore, which may or may not take 50 times as much energy as extracting from current ores.

It could well take a million times as much energy to extract 50 times lower quality ore...

Again, I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, or that your conclusion is wrong, but the reasoning doesn't follow the way you imply.

You seem to think I am confusing diluted ores with U235 enrichment, or that I suggest diluted use in the reactor. I do neither.

I'm saying 50 times more dilute ores could be used since extraction costs are proportional to the inverse of the ore grade. I have read that it is so, but if you have other information, I am interested in hearing it. (It won't matter much in practice. We could run breeders on already existing stockpiles of depleted uranium for hundreds of years.)

Hiya,

I do understand the difference; one is an extremely difficult physical separation that is massively expensive, and one is done via chemical leeching from ore material.

If extraction costs are inversely proportional to the ore grade, then I have no complaint with your conclusion. However, as a scientist, I simply took issue with the statement that it was obvious =) In any event, I imagine that well more than an order of magnitude more earth would have to be dug up and destroyed to produce an energy equivalent of coal from a mine...

Alright, maybe it wasn't so obvious.

I imagine that well more than an order of magnitude more earth would have to be dug up and destroyed to produce an energy equivalent of coal from a mine...

No, orders of magnitude less, actually. Coal typically contains more energy in the form of breeder fuel than is released from ordinary combustion.

In terms of fissionables, ordinary dirt has more energy than coal...

You still need to enrich the ore above a critical value before it will be able to go (just sub-)critical.

Essentially all natural uranium has the same fraction of U-235, no matter the grade of the ore.

I imagine that well more than an order of magnitude more earth would have to be dug up and destroyed to produce an energy equivalent of coal from a mine...

In the USA, uranium mining doesn't dig up ores.  If my sources are correct, all US mining going on at the moment is in-situ leaching.  This changes the chemistry of water going through aquifers to liberate the uranium and capture it in ion-exchange media.  Aside from a few drill cores, nothing is dug up at all.  I have posted pertinent links elsewhere in this discussion.

If we could profitably leach the uranium from coal-ash dumps, it might pay for the conversion of the lead, mercury and other toxics to insoluble forms.  This might bear looking into:  uranium mining as environmental remediation!

It actually does follow, at least as logically as the arguments against it. ANY discussion of enrichment is off the table, because once you've got chemically pure unenriched (natural) uranium, the costs from there onward are identical. Purifying the much lower quality ore is the only problem, but is not in any way significant at the levels of uranium fuel required vs. energy available from the resulting product. Purifying is a simple chemical separation process, well known and of no significant concern down to ore richness levels WAY below any being exploited now. (See posted discussion of relationship of uranium vs. coal energy content)

Hi Neil,

you write:
> While 40GWe is under construction, 131GWe is in the planning stages.

what does planning stage stand for in the nuclear energy history?
If you look up numbers from 20-30 years ago
it was said that by the year 2000 one should have 1000 or more GWe
from nuclear power.

As I document just for the past few years the numbers of new reactors
are always too high. When you click on the link for
new reactors from the WNA and compare with the different country informations
also from WNA you can see that the 2009 hopes and 2010 as well
for new reactors are already out of question.
in fact it might be that not a single new reactor can be connected to the grid
in 2009..

in contrary shutdowns are happening.. follow the PRIS link..
as well as shutdown plans from different countries on the WNA website..

more later

michael

I think it is not really fruitful to make precise forecast. We do have more nuclear construction and planning going on now than a few years ago, but we don't know yet whether we will start serious ramping or not. Let's just agree that decades ago, we could connect 33 new reactors per year and since there are more people now, we have a much stronger global economy and we have simpler designs, we could easily do 100 or more new reactors each year . But with cheap coal and NG, it won't happen just yet, and perhaps it will never happen b/c something better may appear, such as acoustic fusion. We'll just have to wait and see.

> we could easily do 100 or more new reactors each year

Is this statement based on any hard industry numbers?

reality in many countries looks very different!

not enough experts being trained to even keep reactors
going.

Areva seems to be not too far away from dying
only kept a life because it is half state owned
Siemens gave up their shares and try to join the russian equivalent.

and yes,
you should look at the story of the finish EPR reactor
mentioned in one of the comments.

regards

michael

Well, I don't know about hard numbers. But look at it like this: A hundred reactors each year would total about $400 billion per year. Now, oil and gas exploration in 2008 alone seems to have totalled about $475 billion

. Then there was investments in infrastructure, refining capacity and so on. Many here would argue that these investments would have to be done in parallel, and that may be so, but it shows that the industrial scale is not unreasonable.

Really man, i think your a bit out of conTROLL, ehh?

475 billion may be true for oil and gas, however, the oil and gas infrastructure is ALREADY IN PLACE!! Infrastructure for fast breeder reactors and such is NOT in place. People seem to think that nuclear power plants build themselves, sigh.

Man, what are you talking about? Nukes are built today for around $4B a piece. I expect it to become cheaper when real mass production come into play, not more expensive.

Jeppen, where are you getting your numbers? The Florida Power and Light PUC statement was far more than this value, excluding the power line upgrades. The new Finnish reactor is running well past $4 billion Euro.

What are you using for sources?

Well, you are right that the new US contracts are running a higher "all-in" cost, 10-17 billion for two AP1000 reactors. OTOH, the Florida estimate is, according to wikipedia, $5144 per kilowatt for the first one and the second $3376/kW. The first one is expensive!

The China quotes I have seen is about $2 billion per reactor and as I understand it, Japanese and French reactors built on time is $3-4 billion. The Finnish fifth has overrun due to new design and regulatory quarrels, but Finland and Areva expects to do better next time.

The one you're referring to is the first EPR developed and has run into first time regulatory issues. The second EPR in France is going to be far less expensive.

Really the first ten new reactors in the US are going to be quite expensive, and you wont be able to build more than that over the next five years. But thats not saying you couldn't build 100 a year after the infrastructure is in place, though it would take about twenty years to ramp up to that rate. No way in hell is there going to be that kind of crazy demand however, and if there was we wouldn't use light water reactors, so its a bit of a rhetorical fantasyland.

According to today's Next Big Future, China is shooting to have one hundred AP-1000s on line by 2020. I'd bet that they do it.

2022 or 2023 is more likely IMHO. Still impressive.

Alan

Once they can do that, they're in a position to leave the rest of the world who won't move their systems off fossil fuels "in the dust".

well for your great believe in China's capabilities

check yourself on the WNA china article

it seems that all their plans are completely unrealistic

but at least the one contract with Areva
asked for uranium delivery gurantees up to 2027 or so I rememeber

for the WNA china check here:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf63.html

and on occasion this just appeared
under the WNA news .. (may be some influential people realize that not all is
fine with china nuclear..)

``CNNC chief under investigation
Citing state news agencies the Chinese Communist Party has said that Kang Rixin, head of China National Nuclear Corporation (CNNC), is under investigation for a serious disciplinary matter. No futher details were given. "

Michael,
Looking over the 3August update, I can't see why you say that China's plans are unrealistic. They seem to have a progressive construction program spread over a number of different design, and spaced over time. This is certainly less ambitious than the program started in US in the 1970's, and China has the advantage of having the foreign exchange reserves out-bid on critical supplies.
It seems they will be completing about 8-9 reactors per year(10GWe) from 2013 onwards. The only issue I am not sure about is the cost. China has similar very ambitious wind and solar programs reported to be low cost, I guess only time will tell.
When you complete your article about future uranium supplies I am hoping you will also consider thorium use, both in present reactors, and in newer designs such as molten salt.

How does the chinese official at CNNC being investigated effect the larger nuclear build ? The head of Sinopec took 20 million or so in bribes -does that mean that Sinopec will produce less oil ?

It means that they may be officially out of favor - not a nice position to be in if one wants to obtain a more than 10 fold increase in investment. 'Favored' parts of the military industrial complex may have corrupt officials stepping down but these are not published,

Keep also in mind:

At the end of the day, people don't actually care whether the warm shower water was heated on ones roof or in an efficient co-generation plant or a heat pump and whether this heat pump simply replaced a wasteful electric heater and thus saved electricity or was powered by some photovoltaics on the roof, wind, csp, hydro, geothermal, biomass or nuclear.

The question on most people's mind is not:
What can the world do to expand nuclear.

The question is:
What can the world do to provide every body with a warm shower and a hot coffee in a reasonable time.

Even if the global economy does not grow in terms of discretionary retail sales, I believe electrical demand must greatly increase. That demand will come mainly from electrified transport in lieu of liquid fuels but also enhanced applications such as water desalination and thermal comfort in the face of weather extremes. Much of that demand will be non-deferable so that it cannot be guaranteed by current forms of wind and solar. Even if natural gas can provide enough dispatchable power short term it faces depletion and carbon constraints. Conceivably nuclear hydrogen may also have a future role in synthetic fuels and metal refining.

The evidence from Spain, Denmark, Germany and elsewhere (even the Amish in the US) points to the difficulty of a mixed economy operating without at least 50% dispatchable power. Therefore I think we must solve either or both of the problems of storing renewable energy on a large scale or fission generators that have a high fuel burn rate. Either objective must be achieved at affordable cost ie what we can invest within the remaining 20 year time frame.

The USA uses 0.19% of it's electricity for transportation.

France uses 2.3% (lower per capita than USA) for transportation. France is trending towards a strong Non-Oil Transportation system, powered by human muscles (walking & bicycling) and electricity.

100% electrified railroads by 2026 (over half today)
1,500 km of new trams by 2017
More TGV lines

are unlikely to (my SWAG) push French transportation electricity above 4% of total electricity. Widespread use of EVs would change that.

As for climate, increased insulation, windows, etc. and increased efficiency of heat pumps can shrink that demand significantly (>50%).

So I can see an "electric future" with Non-Oil providing most movement and electricity most heating and cooling but with significantly less electricity.

Alan

I think this was a pretty fair description of the future of nuclear power under a "business as usual" scenario. The BAU approach is one in which the nuclear industry has been crippled and forced into the back seat by fossil fuel interests. That may or may not be how things will continue in the future.

In any long range forecasting, it's important to distinguish between what is likely based on extraopolation of current trends, vs. what is possible, based on fundamentals, if events disruptive to current trends should develop. In citing how long it takes to build a new reactor or open a new mine, it's worth recalling that there was a scant four years between the discovery of plutonium and the detonation of the plutonium bomb over Nagasaki. In the Manhattan project, plutonium production reactors were designed in one month and built in the next.

I've seen no evidence that limitations on either reactor construction or uranium mining are in any way fundamental. On the contrary, a lot of what I've read -- admittedly on mostly pro-nuclear web sites -- suggests that order of magnitude increases in both would not be hard to achieve. Perhaps Michael will address this in the next part of the article.

I've seen no evidence that limitations on either reactor construction or uranium mining are in any way fundamental. On the contrary, a lot of what I've read -- admittedly on mostly pro-nuclear web sites -- suggests that order of magnitude increases in both would not be hard to achieve.

Not withstanding the above comment, I'll say that I am not a fan of the "nuclear renaissance" as it is proposed by the current nuclear establishment (such as it is). That proposal is for deployment of a moderate number of new light water reactors of the current generation of "once through" designs, and a "go slow" approach toward development of advanced reactors.

The rationale for this approach sounds good, on the surface: with new mines that will be opening, there will be no problem supplying all of the "once through" reactors that could be built in the next 20 years. Going with proven safe, efficient, and already licenced designs like the AP1000 will minimize risk and opposition from a still-skeptical public. It's the best way to get a moribund nuclear industry back on its feet. All plausible and very practical. Except that ...

Except that it doesn't address the thesis that I'm pretty sure Michael is building up to: that the contribution of current nuclear power and the conservatively projected build-up is so minor that it isn't worth the effort. It's a distraction from the serious business of getting on with the powering down of civilization and accommodation to a low-energy way of life. It creates a false hope that we can somehow manage to keep our current economy and way of life going for at least the next few decades.

That's a very complex thesis, and there's more to say about it than I could possibly squeeze into one short comment. But I'll agree with this much: any plan for future nuclear power needs to be radical and game-changing, or it isn't worth pursuing. And the semi-official "plan of record" of the nuclear establishment doesn't remotely qualify.

As it happens, I think that a radical and game-changing approach is, indeed available. It's the Liquid Thorium Thorium Reactor .

If nuclear power is too minor to be worth pursuing then there is nothing constructive that is worth pursuing.

Its like deciding to not build the Grand Inga hydropowerplant since it only can power 20-50% of Africa depending on the prosperity level.

Deciding not to build Grand Inga would be a good decision.

http://www.wrm.org.uy/bulletin/77/Congo.html

And this from the "Current Dams" part of the wiki entry:

"Currently, the two hydroelectric dams, Inga I and Inga II, operate at low output. The existing dams are famous white elephants, with total installed capacity 1,775 MW, of former Président Mobutu Sese Seko, part of the Inga-Shaba project. They also served a political purpose, by allowing Kinshasa to control the energy supply of the sometimes rebellious Shaba province"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inga_Dam

South Africa (the largest, by far, electricity user in Africa) wants to build more HV DC transmission lines to access this "surplus" power. Several nations to be crossed, politics, capital investment required to properly use this power.

Alan

How can the continued lack of electricity be a good thing?

I find it more humane to wish that dark skinned people with bad governments should fix their governments and get investments going so they can light their homes and streets, run microwave ovens and water boilers instead of burning wood, power all kinds of industry, get clean running water and power electric wehicels and railways.

A the article cited states, there are other, smaller scale ways to get electricity to the people. Huge schemes like this in Africa and most other places in the developed world end up as boondoggles that benefit the few while beggaring many.

There are inherent advantages to grid electricity as opposed to self generated power.

Grand Inga, plus existing and under construction hydro & geothermal plants, can supply the existing African demand with a margin left over for expansion.

This can mean that many South African coal fired plants can be mothballed, that oil fired plants elsewhere can be too. And even the natural gas fired plants in oil exporters can be throttled back.

All good for the environment and likely local economies (local manufacturing could compete better with electricity 24/7 for 50.5 weeks/year and a planned 2 week shutdown when Grand Inga flow declines). Grand Inga has truly minimal environmental impact (about as much as Niagara for much the same reasons).

Grand Inga is not meant (AFAIK) to electrify every village but to supplant existing FF generation. Shifting 40 GW from FF to hydro will cause a downward blip on global carbon emissions !

As to who would be beggared ? I can only see South African coal miners; but new German demand should keep them employed.

Best Hopes for Grand Inga,

Alan

"All good for the environment"

Well, that depends on what the energy is used for. We want to imagine that it is used for the most benign purposes, but mostly it will be used to run tvs that will help brainwash a whole new continent into the consumerist culture.

Most see that we need to power down. Why do we think others need to "power up"?

The suffering in Africa has many sources, most having to do with native and foreign elites robbing the populous. Adding more energy into that mix does nothing but further strengthen the already powerful.

I am perhaps spoiled by living in a functioning society?

But I simply can not accept that it should be impossible for other people to achive an equivalent ability to host very large scale investments in a way that enriches the society they live in.

All that sustainable energy, liquid wealth, just flowing downhill into the ocean. I guess my reaction to the main waterfall if I ever were to see it would put me in a 0.1% cathegory... WOW! Immense power! Imagine the generators this could spin!

Ha, it's the same for me. They have just built this beautiful little waterfall in the city center, diverted a little of the river through a park. Tiny flow, maybe 2 metre head, even got a fish stair. Very pretty. And my first subconscious thought was: wow, we gotta dam this! LOL.

I must confess to thinking the same while enjoying the pitiful little fall on our local creek. I grew up in various places but always near creeks. Most summers I was out in them knee deep building little damns.

I like to think I've matured a bit since then, but maybe not so much.

Do we really just want to dam them all to hell? ;-}

Do we really just want to dam them all to hell? ;-}

I'm afraid so, good thing they won't let us. ;)

I grew up in various places but always near creeks. Most summers I was out in them knee deep building little damns.

LOL, I was absolutely fascinated by running water when I was a kid too, always playing with water and building dams. Still get that little kick whenever I see water running through newly dug ditches for the first time... Is this weird, is there a diagnosis, and do we need professional help? Maybe building you own microhydro station will reduce the symptons, or possibly just aggravate them?

:: ::

Hey, someone has filmed that tiny little city stream I mentioned and put it up on Youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L99Zz--dzUE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UArEmxABL5E

Yeah, and here is the first time the thing gets water in it! :D

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7488346544026749621

The fishes which will recolonize the river are called Asp, a Carp fish which is the provincial fish of Uppland, the ancient province in which the city of Uppsala where I live is located. They have been exterminated from the upper reaches of the local river through contruction of small dams and waterfalls, and the idea is that these stairs (there is one more already and one is in the planning stage) will bring it back. The fish are big beasties that can reach a length over one metre and a weight of over 12 kg. Due to its rarity around here they are not often eaten, but they are a somewhat common food fish in eastern Europe. I've never had one, but as soon as a stable population is established I'm going to try it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Aspius_aspius.jpg

The Asp was named by Carl Linneaus, who also happened to live in Uppsala.

Totally OT, but I hope no one minds. :)

If nuclear power is too minor to be worth pursuing then there is nothing constructive that is worth pursuing.

What is worth pursuing is a path toward much less energy intensive way of life, localization, proximity to agriculture, etc. Tent cities are spring up all over the country. The money to help build small, dense, locally and regionally self-sufficient societies could get one lot more bang for the buck than that spent on expanding nuclear or bailing out those too big to fail.

Survival in a reduced energy consumption environment for millions of people is constructive.

Orthogonal consideration.

Yes, use less, but use less of WHAT?

Use less fossil fuels and it's same tune, different fiddler.

We need to use less AND convert to longer time-scale energy sources, both nuclear and renewables.

Nuclear will run out eventually, but unlike NG it has a long enough time scale and enough usage similarities to wind and solar to serve as a proper bridge technology. NG is just extending the current BAU without putting any leverage in the right direction.

On the other hand, all those folks living in Shruburbs are using less energy so one way or the other you get your wish.

Nuclear will run out eventually

In the same sense that the sun will burn out eventually. When we're talking about millions of years of fuel, I dont think the argument 'nuclear will run out' is even worth bringing up.

You'd have more luck selling your techno-fixes if you could spell fluoride correctly :-)

LOL! You're right about the spelling, of course, but I dunno about how it affects my techno-fix selling ability. Don't blunders like that increase one's "street creds" as an engineer and geek?

the nuclear industry has been crippled and forced into the back seat by fossil fuel interests.

The nuke building industry destroyed itself.

Zimmer, a 99+% complete nuke that could not get an operating license due to poor quality. Wasted billions.

TVA cancels 11 new nukes and repairs on Brown's Ferry on one day.

WHOOPs wastes $25 billion (1980 $) (biggest municipal default in US history) building 5 nukes, finishes one.

TMI (and every B&W reactor goes down for years for retrofits).

Endless more examples of waste.

Like an alcoholic blaming everyone but themselves, the nuke building industry & supporters have to accept the blame to prevent a repeat.

IT IS NOT FOSSIL FUEL INTERESTS,
IT IS NOT ENVIRONMENTALISTS,
IT WAS THE NUKE BUILDING INDUSTRY !

That destroyed the nuke building industry in the USA,

Best Hopes for Facing Reality,

Alan

Alan, the nuke industry couldn't have killed itself if it wanted to, if it weren't for the abundance of coal.

Alan,

I believe he's got you by the neck with both hands this time!No cheap coal would have equaled herea nuke,there a nuke,...

I respectfully disagree.

In the era when massive cost over-runs and multi-year delays were the norm, no cheap coal would have likely resulted in:

1) Much higher electric rates
2) More efficient use of electricity > Less use
3) More electricity from natural gas, small hydro, geothermal, biomass (wind was just beginning to take off).
4) Much more Canadian Hydro imports (perhaps 15-20 GW)
4) Other substitutes for electricity (shut down aluminum production in Pacific NW, ship electricity to California instead, build hydropower plants elsewhere in world to make aluminum).

After Zimmer & TMI, financial people were scared to death of the financial risks of nukes. New nukes were simply *NOT* a viable option !

Oddly Zimmer seemed to have the most impact. "What, after a 200% cost over-run and 3+ year delay, we can't turn on a finished new nuke !!"

Alan

US centric as always... Without cheap coal all over the world, many, many countries, including the US, would have pushed a nuclear agenda and would have streamlined the red tape. Technical progress would have been more steady and we'd already have breeders, thorium reactors and an electricity generation dominated by nuclear reactors.

Alan,

I knew you would have a reasonable and well reasoned answer to my challenge-which should have had a winking smiley ,sorry I forgot that.

You have made a point or two that I can respond to -most heavy industries seem to have quite a few failures in the early days.Maybe nukes would have overcome the costs problem,maybe not.

Srandardization and a for damn sure this is what we are going to build and this is how we are going to build it attitude would surely cut costs a lot today.

Builders should have a fixed set of construction rules they can depend on.And then bond themselves to do it on time and on budget.Maybe it can't be done.Maybe the reason is that it wasn't necessary,since the govt stepped up do it.

Perhaps a lot of the costs overruns were due to trying to build too many nukes too fast at that time.Welders and pipe fitters and electricians working on nukes were making doctor/lawyer money

The answer to TMI ?none probably,but imo the coverage was mostly hysterical and the media,always starved for sensational shocking tittillating news over did it.The enviromentalists saw a chance to slay the nuclear hydra for good and went all out,pulling every stop regardless of the facts.The truths that nukes emit no co2 and require no large scale strip mining were conveniently overlooked by the greens at that time,as were the even then well known facts regarding the ill health effects assoiciated with air pollution,etc.

Nowadays at least we have a few environmentalists of great stature willing to admit that these things are due serious consideration in the energy debate.

My personal preference is that ,given the fact that the nuclear genie is out of his bottle, we go ahead and build some more-as many as we can.My gut feeling is that natural gas and coal are going to both go thru the roof price wise before I depart this world if my luck holds.

Ditto all the wind and solar and geothermal we can-whatever renewables survive the political rat race to the stage of ground breaking should be built,with the exception of coal burners.The ones we have now will outlast cheap coal with a couple of rebuilds.

Build now.While it is still possible to build.It may be impossible later-probably not,but this IS a one time thru experiment,as many others have pointed out.

I agree that we (the USA) should spend $50 billion or so and build six or seven new nukes + complete Watts Bar 2 in ten to twelve years and then decide how many after that.

Not my highest priority for the first $50 billion, but ahead of AIG bailouts.

Once the industry has been re-established and experience given to a variety of people, we may see the nuke advocate prices for new nukes in the "second wave" (after the first 6-7) *IF* the build-out rate is reasonable.

Alan

Like an alcoholic blaming everyone but themselves, the nuke building industry & supporters have to accept the blame to prevent a repeat.

I'm not sure if the psychology of individuals applies all that well to whole industries, and issues of assigning blame are rarely constructive in the first place. But it's certainly true the industry played a central role in the dynamics leading to its downfall. And I agree that it's important to understand those dynamics as clearly as possible if one hopes to avoid a repeat.

The nuclear industry was tainted from birth by "original sin" -- its evolution from and close association with the military programs to breed plutonium and produce weapons. It embraced close regulation by the government and was political from the outset. There was no incentive to resist cost inflation from overblown safety reviews and paperwork, because the work was mostly done on a government "cost plus" basis. The industry didn't think it had to worry about competition from outside the club of government-cleared contractors.

The choice of the reactor technology to pursue when Eisenhower announced "atoms for peace" was politically influenced by the heritage of the bomb. It seemed to make sense to develop a "civilian" version of the light water reactor that was developed for Rickover's nuclear navy. The navy reactors used highly enriched uranium diverted from bomb production. It was expected that plutonium breeders would be developed quickly after the first generation of once-through light water reactors, and experience in dealing with plutonium was spread around the country in government labs and military facilities. The AEC, in deciding how to direct funding, was mindful of the support from congressional delegations from those states.

Most people today are not even aware that there was ever any alternative to the enriched uranium fuel cycle and plutonium breeding in fast spectrum reactors. Or that the original designer of the light water reactor was fired from his position at Oak Ridge for being too vocal in his support of what he considered to be a superior alternative for a civilian power reactor. Check out the last of those Google tech talk links on liquid flouride thorium reactors that I posted above. It gives some fascinating historical background on reactor development. The path we didn't follow could have led us to a different world than we face today.

The article appears to be a good example of erudite tunnel vision,to put the best construction on it.As Roger Arnold has pointed out,there are other reactor designs which are better than the current commonly used technology.This barely rates a mention in the article.

The article also stresses that many of the nations which have a nuclear power industry have depleted their own uranium reserves and that is hardly a surprise.What the writer doesn't mention is that other nations have large known reserves and there are still unexplored regions with a fair probability of finding significant deposits.

Outside of uranium,the thorium technology is known to work and there is no shortage of thorium.

This article illustrates the mindset of the anti-nuclear crowd.In some ways that mindset is similar to that of global warming deniers;a lot of numbers of dubious quality linked to a spurious argument.We won't see much progress on any vital issue as long as these sort of people stand in the way with their heads stuck firmly up their own nether parts.

Yes, I'd also point out that the '2.5% of energy' figure is a fairly gross error - we are effectively assuming 100% efficiency for oil-powered transportation and gas central heating for this to be correct. A trivial thought experiment is to compare the end efficiency of electric vs. petrol cars.

The idea that Uranium *resources* are depleted is also a bit strange; even a country like the UK has significant Uranium resources, which we don't mine due to expense. You have to assume that only conventional mining of high grade deposits is viable to reach the conclusion.

The main thing that the article illustrates is that the Nuclear industry has been generally neglected over the past few decades,due to a fairly toxic combination of insistance by economists that energy policy be driven by short term market considerations with blind resistance from 'environmentalists' who, if they get their way, will first see every scrap of fossil fuel burnt followed by the environmental apocolypse known as 'powerdown'.

Yes, I'd also point out that the '2.5% of energy' figure is a fairly gross error - we are effectively assuming 100% efficiency for oil-powered transportation and gas central heating for this to be correct. A trivial thought experiment is to compare the end efficiency of electric vs. petrol cars.

Lets try to fix this point.

after all we are interested in the service we can get for the energy invested right?

thus, what can you do for one kwhe for example

transformation and comparison with primary source is obviously more tricky.

but in case if you need to charge a battery first
or make hydrogen or whatever "future car fuel"

the efficiency to charge a battery is perhaps 30% or so
similar for electric to hydrogen

thus you loose a factor of three for every kwhe
while the oil is directly "countable"

similar one joule coal ist not the same as 1 joule oil right
(this is among other a reason why the oil drum has been started!)

the eMergy metric from H. Odum tries to take all this into account

in any case if one compares apples with apples
the efficiency of a modern gas or coal power plant should be used
for comparison!

and yes
I hope you agree that it does not make any sense
to give nuclear energy a factor of three
but hydropower a factor of one
like the IEA does.

by this one gets nuclear about 7% in the mix
and hydro less than 3%

while the number of kwhe from Hydro is 10-15% higher than the nuclear one!

michael

That response is close to incoherent. But anyway.. regarding electric cars,

http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-12.htm

Battery charge/discharge is nowhere near as low as 30% - closer to 90% - the waste heat alone from such an inefficient cycle would blow the faster-charging batteries up! I'm not sure why you go on about hydrogen in this context. I didn't.

And no, the oil is not directly countable. Because 1kWh of energy in a battery will give almost 1kWh at the wheel, wheras 1kWh of petrol energy will be lucky to give you 0.25kWh. The use of natural gas in heating will give another conversion factor, although the effect would be smaller.

my numbers are perhaps outdated with modern lithium batteries
good if true!

but in contrast to the article
my laptop heats up a bit while the batteries get charged ..

michael

No, 30% is grossly inaccurate for a new lead-acid battery storing energy for short term (such as one day). It's efficiency is between 80% and 90% and decreases as it ages and for longer storage periods.

Yes, I'd also point out that the '2.5% of energy' figure is a fairly gross error - we are effectively assuming 100% efficiency for oil-powered transportation and gas central heating for this to be correct. A trivial thought experiment is to compare the end efficiency of electric vs. petrol cars.

Lets try to fix this point.

after all we are interested in the service we can get for the energy invested right?

thus, what can you do for one kwhe for example

transformation and comparison with primary source is obviously more tricky.

but in case if you need to charge a battery first
or make hydrogen or whatever "future car fuel"

the efficiency to charge a battery is perhaps 30% or so
similar for electric to hydrogen

thus you loose a factor of three for every kwhe
while the oil is directly "countable"

similar one joule coal ist not the same as 1 joule oil right
(this is among other a reason why the oil drum has been started!)

the eMergy metric from H. Odum tries to take all this into account

in any case if one compares apples with apples
the efficiency of a modern gas or coal power plant should be used
for comparison!

and yes
I hope you agree that it does not make any sense
to give nuclear energy a factor of three
but hydropower a factor of one
like the IEA does.

by this one gets nuclear about 7% in the mix
and hydro less than 3%

while the number of kwhe from Hydro is 10-15% higher than the nuclear one!

michael

Natural gas (and propane) for space heating is pretty efficient (80%-99.9%).

Natural gas is transported to the end user by the most efficient means possible, pipeline, while propane transport is more inefficient.

Using LNG loses about 1/3rd of the energy in natural gas.

So piped NG > propane > LNG for keeping warm.

Electric rail (using power from the grid) is quite efficient, especially for transporting goods. In the USA, moving freight from heavy trucks to electrified rail trades (end use) 20 BTUs/joules of diesel for 1 BTU/joule of electricity.

The complexities of energy accounting are daunting and would, IMHO, require a staff to do properly.

Best Hopes for Better Numbers & Analysis,

Alan

While NG can have an almost 100 % efficiency in space heating, electricity can have several hundred percents of efficiency if heat pupms are used.

"At warmer temperatures" heat pumps have excellent efficiency but at the price of heating the entire house instead of just bedrooms and bathroom. And with MUCH more mechanical complexity & cost with shorter lived equipment. All for minimal heating requirements. That equipment is not "energy free".

I have 10,000 BTU (2.9 kW) in the bedrooms, 6,000 BTU (1.75 kW) in the bathroom and kitchen (not "enough" in kitchen but keeps it tolerable). Just barely enough for the average "coldest day of winter" (-3 C, 27 F)

Since we use old steam natural gas fired generation, it will take almost 300% efficiency for a heat pump to equal direct heat from natural gas.

Alan

A typical air-source heat pump will have a heating value (COP) of 3-4 (some models reach 6 under ideal conditions), ie for every joule of electricity you send into it you get 3-4 joules of heat back. So it'll be more efficient even if the gas plant operates at only 25-33 % thermal efficiency. Combined cycle plants, as you well know, operate at far higher efficiencies than that, and gas-fired CHP reach almost 90 % percent, except that only a considerable fraction of the energy is produced in the form of the more valuable electricity.

It seems to me that if gas is your fuel of choice you should burn it in a CHP, use the hot water to heat the city with a district heating system (and if we're talking New Orleans, use the system for district cooling in summer and dispense with the power hogging air condition) while using the electricity produce to run heat pumps in areas to remote for district heating to make sense.

On top of that, gas is just plain scary. We don't have it around here for either heating or cooking or power (hundreds of kilometres from the closest pipelines, but we do run our buses on biogas), and I'm sure I'd blow myself up if I had to use it regularly (the biogas reactor did blow up recently).

I feel we did replace town gas with electricity for a good reason.

After the thorough analysis (thanks) a bit of anecdotal evidence for the demise of the nuclear power industry:

Moody's cut ratings of companies building nuclear power plants, because they are a financial risk (http://www.grist.org/article/nuclear-plans-hurting-power-companies-credi...)

The experience with Olkiluoto in Finland is a nice example of problems building new plants (http://www.tvo.fi/www/page/2986/). The costs of the plant (1.6 GW) now stand at about 7 billion dollars (60% over budget), and further cost overruns are inevitable. Of course, these costs do not include fuel, and more importantly, waste disposal and decommissioning. Furthermore, AREVA was so keen on building a new plant that it’s making a huge loss with these numbers anyway (paid by their gullible or powerless customers). The plant was supposed to be online last May. Instead,the new schedule is July 2012 (if you believe they will manage, please raise your hand).

Ontario suspends nuclear power plans (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/ontario-suspends-nuclear-po...). The reason: The Ontario bid process required the risk of cost overruns to be assumed by the would-be vendors, which initially included French-based Areva Group, and Westinghouse Electric Co. If all governments require the same, nuclear power is dead, because new renewables are cheaper (wind, small hydro, geothermal, solar heat) or will be cheaper by the time the plants are finished (photovoltaics)

There are three initiatives for building Finlands sixth nuclear powerplant. The interest in building new nuclear power has increased during the building of Olkiluoto 3 and greenfield sites are being proposed by Fennovoima.

http://www.fennovoima.com/en
http://www.tvo.fi/www/page/ol4_en/
http://www.loviisa-3.fi/en/

There are already plans for more high tension lines for these projects.

Fennovoimas photo montages of the proposed sites will probably make a lot of people think they are wildlife preserves but this is how much of Finland and also Sweden look like, miles after miles of slow growing forests with little population.

The Olkiluoto site also include the high level waste repository they are building.
The Swedish equivalent will aslo be sited close to a running nuclear powerplant, Forsmark in the Östhammar municipiality, this is due to local political acceptance and the presense of a large body of solid granite with very few cracks and good heat conductivity.

The driving force for the investments is probably the imported coal getting more expensive, the climate issue and the political risk from importing electricity and natural gas from Putins Russia. Finland has like Sweden lots of paper, pulp and metallurgical industry that use a lot of electricity and they are among the financers for these efforts.

A ToD perspective on this would be applying the export land model on Russias electricity export. Before the financial crash there started to be rumours about a Russian interest for making the back-to-back HVDC link bidirectional to make it possible for Russia to import electricity from Finland.

I hope that all three projects will be built during the next decade since that would save a lot of CO2 emissions and make the nordic electricity trading are much less dependant on imported coal. They would then need to build even more reactors to also replace the oldest ones. Finland is a few years ahead of us in Sweden but I have good hopes that we will get replacements for our old reactors built. It must be extremely good to have enourmous ammounts of electricity available in the post peak oil era.

I hope the Fins use the same procedure as Ontario to decide whether it makes financial sense. I also hope they wait until Olkiluoto is online (my bet: not before 2014; with further cost overruns).

Something about the so-called reliability of nuclear power: "Seven German nuclear plants have failed to generate any electricity this month due to technical breakdowns. They have about half the production capacity of Germany's 17 nuclear reactors, but Germany did not suffer any power shortages" (http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47909).

Sounds familiar? The UK had 7 out of 19 down in 2007 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7058185.stm).

The old plants are getting creakier with time. The new ones cannot be financed.

It seems 2601 TWh was produced globally in nuclear power plants in 2008 from an installed capacity of 373 GWe. This means the availability averaged 79%, and as I understand it, there is an upward trend on availability. Do you have data contradicting this?

No, I think that long experience with the old plants has allowed a gradual increase in availability. New plants will have to go through the same learning process, which is not calculated in.

One the recent closures in Germany has shown that the operator Vattenfall has been cutting corners on maintenance. Similar stories all over the world (Sweden, Japan), and I don't want to know about the plants in China.

As the plants are undeniably getting older and older, more and more problems will surface in unexpected areas. I'm afraid that it's just a matter of time before a more serious accident will happen.

to be honest I reckon the Chinese would run a tight ship. I think it is unfair to assume that they would let safety standards slip at their nuclear reactors. The Chinese are meticulous in detail.

Also, remember the story of the contaminated milk a while back? Well the person who was responsible for the deaths of 7 children was convicted and then taken outside and shot through the head. The Chinese don't take failure lightly. I reckon anyone caught asleep at their posts in a nuclear reactor would not only be shot but likely their entire family would be skinned alive too!

If I had a nickel for every time someone claimed some group or other "would never let that happen because ..." (like, for instance, unsafe cars being sold, worthless or even harmful substances being passed off as medicine, important software being released with inadequate testing, the list is virtually endless) I would certainly be rich by now...

"to be honest I reckon the Chinese would run a tight ship."

Hahahahahahahahahahah.

Sorry.

Hahahahahahaha.

Ok, it's just hard to stop laughing at this ridiculous statement.

Did they run a "tight ship" when they built all those dirty coal plants that are giving people asthma and other respiratory diseases all over the country? Was anyone shot or skinned alive for that?

I have great respect for China and the Chinese. I studied the language and culture for years and my brother has spent most of his adult life there. But it is as stupid to idealize them as it is to demonize them. Westerners tend to do one or the other.

One the recent closures in Germany has shown that the operator Vattenfall has been cutting corners on maintenance. Similar stories all over the world (Sweden, Japan), and I don't want to know about the plants in China.

Not really. (I'm from Sweden, so I have followed this quite closely.) That's just media trying to scare people to sell more.

I'm afraid that it's just a matter of time before a more serious accident will happen.

Well, that's ok. Coal kills many more anyway.

On the contrary, all nations began improving their capacity rates at about the same time, and new plants reach the high capapcity levels (85-95 %) soon after startup. It's not about knowing the intricacies of each individual plants (and ven less so as te new standardised designs are deployed) but rather learning how to optimize these kind of systems.

http://www.whatisnuclear.com/img/capacity_factors.png

Hi,

better check this statement on the PRIS website
it does not seem to be valid (in most cases)
but we have so few new reactors ..

anyway the capacity rise from the diagram can be more related to the
"continuous day and night operation" of the plants

e.g. one learned that it is more efficient to run them in "base load" ..

michael

Some efficiency improvements have been achieved by making better use of the excess heat. For example in Switzerland, it might be better to heat the houses of Olten with the excess heat of Gösgen than the trout fish in the Aare river.

Nuclear heat is used in only a handful places on the planet, I'd say max ten power reactors do this, and probably closer to five. It has has an insignificant effect on global capacity rates, and especially US capacity rates. Indeed, even if that use was widespread it would have no effect on capacity rates as that describes the fraction of time that the reactor is operating. The effect would be on the thermal efficiency of the plant.

e.g. one learned that it is more efficient to run them in "base load" ..

This is not something you "learn" after years and years of operation, it's something which is absolutely blatantly obvious when you check the (high) price tags of the nukes and their (low) operating costs.

Well, I was not talking about monetary efficiency

people talk about xenon poisoning building up in the reactor fuel rods
(high neutron capture which makes it more and more difficult to restart a reactor
after shutdowns or to regulate the power!)

but this is also a reason of course!
(even though electric energy at night in abundance is great for countries
with high hydro pump storage capacity
its not so clear how great it is for France

simple electric heating everywhere at night

as a result during cold days in France and around 19:00 the french system
can not provide enough electric energy and needs to import huge amounts
from other countries (as long as they have)...

michael

Old plants often run at very high efficiency.I believe North Anna 1 and 2 in Virginia have SUPERB performance records.

They pretty much all do... Ironically I think TMI recently won an award for it. But it's really about excellent processes and management. Look at Exelon which bought shitloads of badly managed nukes for chump change during the 90's, brought in their own people and pushed capacity factors to 90-95 % across the fleet.

The experience with Olkiluoto in Finland is a nice example of problems building new plants

The French and the Japanese have been quite good at building plants on time and on schedule. That the Fins have problems with a first-of-a-kind plant is perhaps a "nice example" if you are opposed to nuclear power, but it is not very typical. Things are ok now and will improve even more once the nuclear renaissance gets up to speed with standardised plants and experienced construction crews.

Of course, these costs do not include fuel, and more importantly, waste disposal and decommissioning.

Less importantly, I'd say. Such costs are not very significant.

If all governments require the same, nuclear power is dead, because new renewables are cheaper (wind, small hydro, geothermal, solar heat) or will be cheaper by the time the plants are finished (photovoltaics)

In the real world, what you claim is not supported by facts. Nuclear is cheaper and more scaleable. Also, the PV claim is pure speculation.

Well, since Asse in Germany is a disaster, and Yucca Mountain was scrapped, waste disposal and decommissioning are unsolved and have been handed over to future generations, at ever increasing cost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_decommissioning). Brennilis in France cost Euro 480 milion (20 times estimate). Latest numbers go to USD 4000 per kWe (about what it used to cost to build a new one).

Regarding experience building new plants: Olkiluoto is being built by AREVA, the French specialist, which doesn't seem to help much.

The Cooper report (www.nirs.org/neconomics/cooperreport_neconomics062009.pdf) shows that by far most nuclear power plants had over 3-fold cost overruns.

"Half of the reactors ordered in the 1960s and 1970s were cancelled, with abandoned costs in the tens of billions of dollars."

"The most recent cost projections for new nuclear reactors are, on average, over four times as high as the initial “nuclear renaissance” projections."

Well, since Asse in Germany is a disaster, and Yucca Mountain was scrapped, waste disposal and decommissioning are unsolved

It is solved when you want it to be solved. The problem today is political, not technical. And much more R&D money than necessary has been spent on this matter.

Latest numbers go to USD 4000 per kWe

Wikipedia state US utilities average $325 million per reactor, so more like $325 per KWe.

The Cooper report shows that by far most nuclear power plants had over 3-fold cost overruns.

"Half of the reactors ordered in the 1960s and 1970s were cancelled, with abandoned costs in the tens of billions of dollars."

So, how was the windmill and PV businesses in the 60-ies?

"The most recent cost projections for new nuclear reactors are, on average, over four times as high as the initial “nuclear renaissance” projections."

Well, as I understand it, US utilities are signing contracts now, at reasonable prices. Let's see how it plays out.

Nuclear is cheaper and more scaleable. Also, the PV claim is pure speculation.

Florida Power and Light estimates its two new plants will cost as much as $24 billion.

Actually, that may be close to $10'000 per kW and nuclear power plants have to compete at utility level and PV on existing roofs do not.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89169837

First Solar has already reached $980 per kW (not speculation):
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6640264.html

QS Solar aims at $750 per kW:
http://www.solarplaza.com/article/solar-module-sales-price-of-1-per-watt...

Oerlikon Solar even aims at $700 per kW by 2010 (and last year was at $1500 per kW (not speculation)).
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/energy/renewables/first-solar-quest-for-the...

Florida Power and Light estimates its two new plants will cost as much as $24 billion.

Where have you read that? The two new reactors, according to wikipedia, has "calculated overnight capital cost from $2444 to $3582 per kW, which were grossed up to include cooling towers, site works, land costs, transmission costs and risk management for total costs of $3108 to $4540 per kilowatt. Adding in finance charges increased the overall figures to $5780 to $8071 per kW".

First Solar has already reached $980 per kW (not speculation)

That's just the manufacturing cost for the cells. I don't think this even includes as much as the overnight capital cost of a nuke. And then a solar kW is worth about one fifth of a nuclear kW, since the sun isn't at zenith all the time. PV is still extremely expensive and needs much more government subsidies than wind.

Where have you read that?
Here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89169837

Florida Power and Light estimates its two new plants will cost as much as $24 billion.

Which may be close to $10'000 per kW.

I don't think this even includes as much as the overnight capital cost of a nuke.
PV modules can be installed overnight or at least in a matter of days, new nuclear power plants require years.

These are just the manufacturing costs of the cells.
No these are actually the manufacturing costs of the entire modules:
http://www.edn.com/article/CA6640264.html

solar modules manufactured below the $1 per watt point, at a cost of $0.98 per watt.

And then a solar kW is worth about one fifth of a nuclear kW,
1. PV only produces electricity during daytime when electricity prices are always higher than at night.
2. Nuclear has to compete at utility price level and PV on existing roofs does not.

Well, the $24 billion is simply wrong. Other more precise sources cite lower costs.

Ok, modules if the article has it right, but they still have to be profited from, transported, mounted, perhaps tracking the sun, integrated with the grid and so on.

1. PV only produces electricity during daytime when electricity prices are always higher than at night.

That's nice, but also illustrates that PV is a niche solution, not something we can rely on for most of our power.

2. Nuclear has to compete at utility price level and PV on existing roofs does not.

Homeowners often delude themselves by disregarding discount, deprecation and so on. Also, if there is a cost advantage due to feed-in tariffs, different taxation and so on, this is unfair towards nuclear and will result in suboptimal energy production. PV on roofs are small-scale and entails a lot of overhead, btw - forget about $1/kW.

In Spain, solar PV has a feed-in tariff at 32 euro-cents. Wind has a feed-in tariff at up to 7 euro-cents. Why, do you think, if solar-PV is such a slam-dunk in economic terms? This tells me that wind is not competitive with nuclear, and that solar PV is likely 4-5 times more expensive than wind. (Also, the Spain solar tariff is down this year from 45 euro-cents, and installations are expected to drop like a rock because of it.)

Well, the $24 billion is simply wrong. Other more precise sources cite lower costs.

Other more precise sources which you didn't post?
And you are suggesting that Florida Light and Power is simply lying.

PV on roofs are small-scale and entails a lot of overhead,

Actually several 100 Millions of roofs and facades are large scale and do already exist.

In Spain, solar PV has a feed-in tariff at 32 euro-cents.

That might explain why PV-manufacturers made record profits last year.

That's nice, but also illustrates that PV is a niche solution, not something we can rely on for most of our power.

Actually this is something we can rely on to power a significant portion of all buildings and reduce the load on the grid at the same time. Besides heat pumps are becoming increasingly popular and heat energy is being stored cheaply.

I did a citation, the source of which you can find using two seconds and Google. A few more seconds will convince you that most sources state $12-$17 billion as the estimated all-in cost. If you dismiss this and keep going with the highest number you can find on the Internet for nuclear and the lowest you can find on solar, I'll simply include this fact in my appraisal of your objectivity.

Actually several 100 Millions of roofs and facades are large scale and do already exist.

To me, that would make for 100 million small scale installations. It would obviously be more rational to buy some land and do a big installation.

Actually this is something we can rely on to power a significant portion of all buildings

Yes, we can thus irrationalize a "significant part" of our electricity production (perhaps 20%), but we shouldn't. Nuclear is both more economical and better for the environment.

I did a citation,

No you didn't.

To me, that would make for 100 million small scale installations. It would obviously be more rational to buy some land and do a big installation.

If you build it on existing roofs and facades you don't need to buy any land and you are connected to the grid and reduce the load on the grid.

but we shouldn't. Nuclear is both more economical and better for the environment.

Actually:
PV has lower capital costs.
PV doesn't require any fuel.
PV generates many decentralized jobs.
PV requires hardly any maintenance.
PV reduces the dependence on foreign fuels.
PV can easily be recycled and doesn't have high decommissioning costs.
PV reduces the load on the grid.
PV doesn't require reprocessing plants and repositories.

Solar cost estimates never include the cost of the backup plants and their fuel supply systems. Coal plants are designed for a 40 year lifetime and the average age of a coal plant in the U.S. is already over 40 years, so if we go with wind and solar we will have to build a new set of backup plants.

The same problem exists in developing countries that do not have a large conventional grid.

The emissions from constructing and operating the backup plants should be applied to the wind and solar plants.

Solar cost estimates never include the cost of the backup plants

Besides that PV on existing roofs produces power every single day and reduces the load on the grid, do nuclear power plants include the costs of the backup plants?

Seven German nuclear plants have failed to generate any electricity this month due to technical breakdowns. They have about half the production capacity of Germany's 17 nuclear reactors, but Germany did not suffer any power shortages.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47909

We have plenty of new natural gas plants to serve as back-up for solar, wind and nukes (who can and do go down unexpectedly for many months and even years at a time).

OTOH, large new nukes require large amounts of spinning reserve, while wind & solar require almost none.

Best Hopes for a Rush to Wind and a Safe, Economic Build-out of new nukes,

Alan

If there is an unexpected drop in the wind over a large area containing many wind farms, it is like losing several conventional power plants at the same time. A recent unforcast wind lull in Texas gave us a preview of this.

“The grid operator went directly to the second stage of an emergency plan … System operators curtailed power to interruptible customers to shave 1,100 megawatts of demand within 10 minutes… ERCOT said the grid's frequency dropped suddenly when wind production fell from more than 1,700 megawatts, before the event, to 300 MW when the emergency was declared”.

ERCOT wants to double its wind capacity. If the wind farms had been fully built out that same lull would have produce a much larger loss of generation.

The possibility of common mode failure due to widespread meteorological conditions resulting in a large drop in generation dramatically increases the spinning reserve required to assure grid reliability. The cost, fuel consumption and emissions associated with maintaining a larger spinning reserve for wind arrays should be attributed to the windmills.

Spinning reserves in ERCOT are set by STNP and Comanche Peak. Those nukes require such large spinning reserves that wind is covered several times over.

Spinning reserve is a weakness of large nukes, not wind.

And yes the coal burned to maintain spinning reserves needs to be included when calculating the benefits of nukes.

Wind winds down slow enough that interruptibile customers can be interrupted (LOTS of rotational inertia). Not so for nukes. Spinning reserve is required to back them up !

Alan

and yet the contribution from solar power remains tiny. You have to build the factories and the supply chain to make the PV.

One of the big issues with Solar power is that there are a lot of companies trying different technologies and many of them fail. They get a few million and achieve some lab success then they get tens to a hundred million to scale up over 4 years and then they fail. The assumption is that scaling up is easy but it is not.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/cleantech-investing/

Roofing is the 6th most dangerous job.

Costs have to include not just the solar cells but the installation, grid hookup, supply chain, factories etc...

They get a few million and achieve some lab success then they get tens to a hundred million to scale up over 4 years and then they fail. The assumption is that scaling up is easy but it is not.
PV production grew by 86% to 6.9 GW last year. So apparently scaling up did work.
Solar PV production (annual)
2007: 3.7 GW
2008: 6.9 GW (these are serious factories - no one produces 6.9 GW in a lab)
http://www.ren21.net/pdf/RE_GSR_2009_Update.pdf
Besides PV modules are usually offered with a 25 year warranty.

Roofing is the 6th most dangerous job.
In that case we'll have to forgo roofing and sit in the rain until someone invents a safety rope?

You have to build the factories and the supply chain to make the PV.
A thinfilm PV factory that produces 1.6 GW in 10 years costs less than $0.3 billion.
The substrates they require is window glass. There's no window glass shortage.
And for the silicon layer they require silane, which is produced in abundance for the construction market (e.g. silicone).
http://www.oerlikon.com/ecomaXL/index.php?site=SOLAR_EN_press_releases_d...

Costs have to include not just the solar cells but the installation, grid hookup, supply chain, factories etc.
The costs for the solar modules obviously do include the costs of the factories and its supply chain, the converters are available below $300/kW and the installation of a one household PV system can be done in a day.

And manufacturing costs of solar modules have reached $980/kW, which makes them competitive, especially if utilities keep on increasing electricity prices to buy carbon tax on their fossil power plants, to pay for the increasing cng prices or to fund new nuclear power plants.
http://investor.firstsolar.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=201491&p=irol-newsArticle...

http://seekingalpha.com/article/151572-four-problems-facing-solar-power-...

at least four structural problems facing existing public solar power companies:

There is risk that some new entrant will leapfrog them by developing a better, disruptive technology.
Solar energy has to compete with the memory chip industry for its raw semiconducting materials, which, much like corn, gasoline and ethanol, breaks the link between input cost and selling price.
Competition comes not just from other producers of solar energy, but from other producers of electricity from other alternatives and conventional sources. On a LCOE basis, solar will usually lose on pure economics. Thus,
Demand is heavily reliant on subsidies that will inevitably be reduced or phased out.

http://news.cnet.com/greentech/?keyword=solar+shakeout
Hayward, Calif.-based OptiSolar said last week that it has closed its solar cell manufacturing plant and is laying off 200 employees, according to reports. Late last year, it cut its staff in half and warned that it would need more capital to continue operating.

===
I am pointing out a problem for investors in the tech and industry as a whole. If significant numbers of investors lose their money then that industry has more trouble raising money going forward.

worldwide market for solar energy roughly doubled last year, to $33 billion. Plus tens of billions more in government tax credits (Germany feed in taxes).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power

Solar power has great potential, but in 2008 supplied less than 0.02% of the world's total energy supply. There are many competing technologies, including fourteen types of photovoltaic cells, such as thin film, monocrystalline silicon, polycrystalline silicon, and amorphous cells, as well as multiple types of concentrating solar power. It is too early to know which technology will become dominant

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/alternate/page/renew_energy_consump/table3....

Most residential roofs are sloped.

Of the solar companies and tech. I like CoolEarth

http://www.coolearthsolar.com/technology

Balloon concentrators over farmland (no falling), less material.

and Sunrgi (concentrators)

Solar energy has to compete with the memory chip industry for its raw semiconducting materials, which, much like corn, gasoline and ethanol, breaks the link between input cost and selling price.
As I said before thinfilm silicon PV doesn't compete for raw materials with the semiconducting industry:
http://www.oerlikon.com/solar/
http://www.appliedmaterials.com/products/solar_3.html

Besides not even the polycrystalline cells compete with the semiconductor industry as they produce polysilicon with a much lower quality specifically for PV purposes. The times where the PV industry uses the same silicon wafer material as the semiconductor industry are mostly gone.

Hayward, Calif.-based OptiSolar said last week that it has closed its solar cell manufacturing plant.
That's a start-up with a bad website and which doesn't even sell any products.
http://www.optisolar.com/

(concentrators)
The disadvantage of concentrators is that they always require direct sunlight. Thinfilm PV is actually quite efficient without direct sunlight.

Solar power has great potential, but in 2008 supplied less than 0.02% of the world's total energy supply.
They don't include solar hot water capacity which obviously also produces a form of energy and there's already 145 GWth installed.
China installed 14 GWth of solar hot water capacity last year alone.
www.ren21.net/pdf/RE_GSR_2009_Update.pdf

There's lots of potential in solar hot water and solar cooling:
http://www.solarserver.de/solarmagazin/anlage_0308_e.html
http://www.solarcool.com/index.php?article_id=3&clang=2

And that still doesn't change the fact that thinfilm PV factories can essentially produce 100 GW per year.
It's mainly a question of capital not resources.
With the $180 billion AIG bailout one could have financed PV factories which produce 960 GW in 10 years:
http://www.oerlikon.com/ecomaXL/index.php?site=SOLAR_EN_press_releases

Last but not least: 2 billion people are still not connected to a grid. It takes less time to connect a house to a PV-module than to wait for a grid to arrive.

Yes, I did provide a citation.

I could do a point-by-point rebuttal to your list, but I'll just repeat that solar PV requires HUGE feed-in tariffs or other subsidies to be built in any kind of volume.

Well, the $24 billion is simply wrong. Other more precise sources cite lower costs.

Other more precise sources which you didn't post?
And you are suggesting that Florida Light and Power is simply lying.

FPL had considered building two 1550 MW reactors; they've opted for two 1100 MW reactors instead, with a consequent reduction in cost.

I did a citation,

No you didn't.

He did: "The two new reactors, according to wikipedia, has ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_Point_Nuclear_Generating_Station

In Spain, solar PV has a feed-in tariff at 32 euro-cents.

That might explain why PV-manufacturers made record profits last year.

And why they won't this year.

While Spain did want to spur PV last year, the feed-in tariffs offered were miscalculated by officials, so that new installations could be paid off in as little as a year. This led to explosive growth which won't be repeated in 2009 because Spain capped installations it will support at 0.5GW. That means that somehow the world market would have to make up that 2GW shortfall to match last year, which is unlikely industry observers believe.
http://www.solid-state.com/display_article/367644/5/none/none/APPLI/Glob...

While some solar panel makers have dialed down their production volumes, the industry overall is still churning out way too many products. The problem is so bad that the glut is likely to stay until 2012, according to a new report by iSuppli, a market research firm in El Segundo, Calif.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/solar-panel-glut-could-last-...

FPL had considered building two 1550 MW reactors; they've opted for two 1100 MW reactors instead, with a consequent reduction in cost.

...and without change in costs per kW

While some solar panel makers have dialed down their production volumes, the industry overall is still churning out way too many products.

which will further reduce solar module costs, since there are still a few 100 Million uncovered roofs left...