New Nuclear Reactors For The UK: Is This Really A Good Idea?
Posted by Chris Vernon on January 4, 2008 - 10:19am in The Oil Drum: Europe
Topic: Alternative energy
Tags: eroei, nuclear, united kingdom, uranium [list all tags]
...not when you take into account the uranium-peak, the energy return on energy invested in the nuclear life-cycle, and the prospect of much of the legacy of nuclear waste being abandoned for ever.This is a guest article by Dr. David Fleming. Fleming is the Founder Director of the Lean Economy Connection, and an independent writer in the fields of energy, environment, economics, society and culture. The article is based on Fleming’s recent 56-page booklet, The Lean Guide to Nuclear Energy, which expands and references the arguments presented. The booklet is available to download here: The Lean Guide to Nuclear Energy | ![]() |
“New nuclear power stations potentially have a role to play in tackling climate change and improving energy security. Having concluded the full public consultation we will announce our final decision early in the New Year.”And he added that the planning process would be “streamlined”, which means that it will not be held up by long public enquiries. This appears to be something the Government is determined will happen quickly.
Bloomberg
There are, however, some questions to be raised about this plan. ~The first question is, where will the uranium needed to fuel the new reactors will come from? My own research, The Lean Guide to Nuclear Energy, concludes that, as early as 2013, there will be substantial shortages of uranium worldwide.
At present, annual demand for uranium is running at about 65,000 tonnes. Some 25,000 tonnes of this comes from sources other than mining, and it will be largely exhausted by 2013. 10,000 tonnes is derived from military uranium, the highly-enriched uranium used in Russia’s stockpile of nuclear weapons left over from the Cold War. Russia’s contract to supply the United States with fuel from this source ends in 2013, and it will not be renewed. Indeed, by that time, Russia’s store of military uranium will itself be running low.
Most of the remaining 15,000 tonnes comes from “secondary supplies” – that is, from stockpiles of uranium which were built up when supplies were abundant and comparatively cheap in the 1970s. This, source, too, is getting low, and by the middle of the next decade it will be doing little or nothing to fill the gap between demand and the annual 40,000 tonnes of mined uranium supply.
The supply of mined uranium is stuck at that level, and it now looks likely to decline. Of the dozen nations which are significant sources of uranium, only Kazakhstan shows a useful rate of growth – enough for the time being to compensate for a general decline among the smaller producers. But the industry’s hopes of being able to increase its uranium output depend now on two big developments: Cigar Lake in Canada and Olympic Dam in Australia.
Neither of them are looking happy at the moment. Cigar Lake has flooded. The owners are working on the problem, and in principle this could involve freezing the rock around the uranium workings. But clearly this would be an extremely energy-intensive programme and there are doubts whether it will happen. Olympic Dam is at present an underground mine, and the plan is to expand it to opencast, but there is a fundamental problem: the average ore grade is 0.029 percent, on the margin of what is even theoretically capable of yielding net energy.
Whether this is in fact rich enough to give a net energy return is disputable, and as a contribution to the debate, The Lean Guide to Nuclear Energy suggests that the usual measure of energy return on energy invested (EREI) needs some refinement. On the one hand, there is the theoretical energy return on energy invested (TREI) – which means that you can get net energy from the process under ideal laboratory or prototype conditions, assuming there are no other problems. On the other hand, there is the practical return on energy invested (PREI), which takes the real world into account.
In the case of Olympic Dam, the real world is present, big time: the process of producing uranium oxide requires water – but Olympic Dam is in an area of deep drought. It will require imports of diesel with an energy content not far short of the energy ultimately derived from the uranium. There is some 350 metres of rock overburden to be removed before the ore is reached. If the project does go ahead, this will be because the ore also contains copper, gold and silver, but even this presents problems, because the copper is contaminated with uranium which has to be removed. For a practical return on energy invested (PREI), and in a mine with no secondary products such as gold, a mining company would probably require an ore-quality of 0.1 percent uranium or better. And bear in mind that if the return on energy invested in uranium mining turns negative, the carbon emissions associated with using it are higher than the emissions that would be released if the gas and diesel employed in the process were simply used to generate electricity directly.
In short, both Cigar Lake and Olympic Dam have yet to show that they have a contribution to make. Even if they did go ahead according to plan, total output by the middle of the next decade would still be some 15,000 tonnes short of demand. If it is decided not to go ahead with them, the world’s uranium production will be launched on a downward trajectory in line with post-peak oil. We are already hearing the protests characteristic at this stage in the depletion process, that “rising prices will stimulate exploration and bring rich new supplies onto the market”. But you can’t run a nuclear reactor on rhetoric.
A cautious view would say “Let’s wait and see”. A useful view would make an informed estimate of the most likely outcomes, and correct it in the light of events. It is a reasonable estimate that, by 2015, the worldwide availability of uranium from all sources will be lower than it is at present. Meanwhile, reactors are being built in China and Russia, both of whom have heavyweight influence in the uranium market. All this means that if the UK Government goes ahead with the construction of, say, four nuclear reactors, ready to go online after 2015, the probability is that they will remain unused. They will be mothballed “until the temporary shortage of uranium has been resolved” – and then they will be quietly left to rot. A possible variant of this is that they will indeed be started up; however, the energy pay-back time for a new nuclear reactor is around seven years (or more, depending in part on the ore grade) so – even if they actually went on line in 2015 – they would not begin to make a net energy contribution until 2022. On current evidence, there is no reasonable prospect of the sustained flow of uranium that would be needed to make this possible.
Meanwhile, the construction projects will have diverted money and policy emphasis away from the fundamentals of energy conservation, structural reform and renewables, and we will be deep into the post-oil peak period without an energy strategy in place. The UK’s energy policy, (in common with that of many other nations), will have been reduced to fiasco.

The energy-cost of waste-disposal
Nuclear energy, as everyone knows, produces a lot of waste. Some of it is extremely radioactive and has to be stored for up to 100 years in ponds, separated by boron panels to stop it going critical, and cooled by electrically-driven water pumps to stop it catching fire. It also has to be guarded to protect it from being stolen or attacked. And it has to be kept out of the path of rising sea levels. All this is known, though it is sometimes forgotten.What is not so widely recognised is that the final disposal of waste will require a lot of energy. This begins to become clear when you think about what has to be done to keep high-level wastes safe for the thousands for years in which they must lie undisturbed. Containers have to be built from steel, lead and electrolytic copper; vast repositories have to be dug and lined with clay; much of the work needs to be done by robots; retired fuel-rods have to be kept cool and safe for a century or so before the final disposal programme begins. Then there is the energy-cost of dismantling and burying the old reactors, doing the best that can done to rehabilitate the disused uranium mines to some semblance of sustainability and safety, and dealing with the stocks of leaking depleted uranium hexafluoride gas. (It is “depleted” in the sense that it has been used as a source of the uranium-235 needed by reactors, but some uranium-235 and all the uranium-238 remains).
So far, there is no sign that we have even begun to think through the implications of the legacy of nuclear waste at present being stored around the planet, and the energy-cost of dealing with it. On the contrary, the only nuclear-waste-related programme that has so far been consistently and (on some criteria) successfully implemented is the use of DU to increase the density of the new generation of armaments. For evidence of the medical consequences and mutations arising from this, and the work of Dr Siegwart-Horst Günther in investigating it, see http://www.criticalconcern.com/depleted_uranium.htm and the Frieder Wagner film Deadly Dust. Action to decontaminate areas where it was used in Iraq and, to a lesser extent, in Kosovo, will never amount to more than mitigation, but it is part of the nuclear clear-up programme, and it is urgent that it should be done before the radioactive dust is blown through Central Europe and beyond. An international recognition that DU qualifies as a prohibited weapon under the Geneva and Hague Conventions, would be at least a first step towards focusing on the disturbing potential of the planet’s nuclear legacy. A second step would be to take action with respect to the many thousands of tonnes of depleted uranium hexafluoride gas, now in storage all over the planet in containers originally designed to be “temporary”.
To deal with the total legacy of waste left by a nuclear reactor through its whole life-cycle requires energy equivalent to about 25 percent of the gross energy supplied by the reactor to the grid. That is a working estimate, which will vary with time and place; the numbers depend critically on the standard of waste management that is adopted – it could of course be done to leaky cowboy standards for less. But that 25 percent – derived from Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen’s work at http://www.stormsmith.nl/, gives us an outline for thinking about it. And note that it is based on like-for-like energy: the unit of account is high-quality energy, the energy that nuclear reactors generate and fed to the grid. In fact, much of the work of clearing the waste would be diesel – which, for each joule it contains, yields roughly one third of a joule of work (mechanical energy and electricity). So, at current efficiency levels, for every joule of energy needed to clean up the nuclear industry’s waste, diesel containing roughly three times that amount of energy is needed.
Now, the nuclear energy industry is just coming up to its sixtieth birthday (1950-2010). That means that there is about 60 years-worth of accumulated waste – the “legacy” – to get rid of. 25 percent of that equals 15 years of nuclear electricity production.
And according to some estimates – very optimistic but at least convenient – there are some sixty years of uranium left (at current rates of production). That would mean another 15 years of nuclear electricity production needed just to get rid of the waste that will be produced in the future.
Moreover, the nuclear industry needs a lot of front-end energy too – all the energy used to mine and mill the fuel, build the reactor, etc. That, too, comes to around 25 percent of the nuclear energy produced for the grid.
So, what would this mean for a nuclear industry that really did have the prospect of another sixty years supply of uranium? Subtract (15+15+15) years from the total of 60 years, and we are left with a net flow of nuclear electricity lasting for another 15 years. By 2025, on these assumptions, the nuclear industry will have reached the point at which it must use the whole of its net electricity output (i.e. net of front-end energy costs) to deal with its wastes. If (before 2025) it has not made a substantial start on the waste-disposal programme, and if (after 2025) it does not direct the whole of its net output into the task of waste disposal, it will never be able to dispose of its own wastes using its own energy (or energy equal to its own output from another source). On the assumptions set out here, therefore, the nuclear industry will, in 2025, become energy-bankrupt.
Now, what if there were substantially less – or substantially more – than 60 years supply of uranium left? Some estimates are set out in the table. Suppose, for instance, there were only 30 years supply left (i.e. 2010-2040). That gives us a turning point to energy- bankruptcy in 2010. If there were a mere 10 years supply left (2010-2020), the year of energy-bankruptcy would be 2000.
YEARS OF NET NUCLEAR ENERGY REMAINING FROM 2010 at current rates of extraction. (Assumed start-date for industry 1950. Assumed present 2010. Numbers in years) | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1. Estimate: years of positive PREI ore remaining | 10 | 30 | 60 | 200 |
| 2. Front-end: process energy (25% remaining years) | 2.5 | 7.5 | 15 | 50 |
| 3. Energy to clear new waste (25% of remaining years) | 2.5 | 7.5 | 15 | 50 |
| 4. Energy to clear old waste (25% of past 60 years) | 15 | 15 | 15 | 15 |
| 5. Total needed for front end plus back end (2+3+4) | 20 | 30 | 45 | 115 |
| 6. Years remaining (1-5) | -10 | 0 | 15 | 85 |
| 7. Year of energy-bankruptcy: all energy produced is needed to dispose of new and old waste: (6+2010) | 2000 | 2010 | 2025 | 2095 |
| Suppose the industry, starting with no waste, has 200 years before its usable ore runs out. During that time, it
generates a gross amount of energy which it feeds into the grid, but at the same time it must (a) provide the energy needed for its own
front-end operation, (b) pay back the energy it used to mine its ore, build its reactors, etc., and (c) clear up its own wastes. As
explained in chapter 3, pp 17-18, each of these amount to about 25 percent of its gross energy output. Therefore that amount – 75 percent
of its gross output, must be subtracted to find the number of years for which the industry can continue before using the whole of its
output to pay back its energy debt and clear up its wastes. There are other ways in which this could be calculated – for instance, using net output (gross output less the front-end energy cost factored in over time); or the back-end work could start sooner. These would tell slightly different stories, but they would be equally valid. The method shown in the table is a reminder that the industry actually supplies less energy (net) than the gross energy that it puts into the grid. At a time of energy scarcity, this is a key consideration. And it tells us how long the industry has left before waste-disposal becomes the reason for its existence. | ||||

Are there other usable sources of uranium?
In the light of this, it would come as a relief even to those of us who see nuclear energy as being part of the energy problem, rather than part of the solution, to think that there were some other sources of uranium to sustain supplies while the nuclear industry devotes its final years to the task of cleaning itself up. Various sources have been considered.For example, there is uranium in granite – about 4 parts per million or 0.0004 percent. The problem here is that it would require so much energy to extract it that the energy used by the nuclear cycle as a whole would amount to around 25 times the energy produced. Seawater also contains some 30 parts per billion, or 0.000003 percent. Here, the energy balance would be better, but the nuclear life-cycle would still use about twice as much energy as it was able to extract and make available to the grid. Phosphate ores are more promising, with uranium concentrations of between 0.007 and 0.23 percent, with an average of around 0.01 percent: the higher-grade ores might give a break-even energy balance in theory, but they still fall a long way short of the cut-off point for a practical return (PREI), which is around 0.1 percent.
And that leaves fast-breeders, based on plutonium-239. The problem here is, first of all, that successful breeding requires three processes: the breeding itself, reprocessing and fuel fabrication. These are fiercely-difficult technologies, awash with radioactive pollutants such as plutonium-241, americium, technetium and other transuranic actinides which have to be separated out (using solvents with a high global warming potential) and then disposed of. Each of the steps has been achieved under test conditions, but sustaining them all three concurrently, safely, on a commercial scale and at a realistic cost is another matter; indeed, there are some doubts as to whether all these criteria can be met at the same time, even in theory. (See The Lean Guide to Nuclear Energy, chapter 4).
Secondly, we need to be aware of the limitations of scale here. In the highly-unlikely event of being able to perfect the technology and find sufficient plutonium to start, say, 80 breeders worldwide in 25 years time (2035), then, 40 years later (2075), we would have 160 fast breeders in operation. And that would be our entire fleet of nuclear reactors, for the 440 conventional reactors now in operation – and their successors – will by then be out of fuel.
And thorium? It is an inelegant technology, lumbering through a decay sequence from thorium 232 to thorium-233 to protactinium-233 – and eventually to uranium 233 – along with a swarm of contaminants including the neutron-emitters uranium-232 and thorium-228. Added complications include the long half-life of the protactinium-233 (27 days), so that it lingers around, causing problems in the reactor, and the awkward fact that uranium-233 can be used in nuclear weapons. Then there is the question of what start-up fuel to use: the best one would be uranium-233, but you only get a supply of that at the end of the first cycle. If plutonium-239 is available, it would seem to be more sensible to use it for the fast-breeder programme than to start the even more uncertain thorium cycle. And the problem of scale is even more decisive in the case of the thorium cycle than in the case of fast-breeders. On the best estimate available at present, and pretending for a moment that the technical difficulties are eventually solved, we could look forward in 2075 to a global fleet of perhaps two thorium-based reactors.

How should the remaining years of nuclear energy be used?
Now, that takes us back to the range of depletion forecasts in the table. Opinion will vary, without real prospect of agreement, between the three more realistic turning-points 10, 30 and 60 years hence (2030, 2050 and 2070) beyond which the production of uranium from mines can no longer be sustained at the current rate – and we should bear in mind that actual shortages of uranium will occur well before those dates as the world’s inventories are used up. In my own view, it is sensible to see sustained uranium supplies at current levels lasting for another 10-30 years. This would give us a point of energy-bankruptcy at between 2000 and 2010 – which would mean that the nuclear industry has in effect already passed the point of energy-bankruptcy. On the other hand, critics could rationally argue a case for a production turning-point of 60 years from the present – and that’s fine, but note that this would give us a point of energy bankruptcy in 2025. In other words, unless one is going to take a truly incoherent view and argue that production can be sustained at the current rate for 200 years, it is evident that the end of the life of the nuclear industry as a net source of energy is at hand, and may already have passed. Nuclear energy is not going to be a solution to the coming hydrocarbon-based energy famine. We have a problem.After the turning-point to energy-bankruptcy, there is a spectrum of choices. At one extreme, it will be agreed that the task of disposing of nuclear waste is so important that the other sources of energy – such as oil – must be directed into the mammoth task of dealing with the nuclear industry’s waste-disposal programme.
At the other extreme, the waste will be left to fend for itself for thousands of years to come. It is unlikely that the electricity supply needed to cool the high-level waste and stop it catching fire will be maintained for that time. There will be no maintenance to prevent leaks, no security to prevent theft, no action to remove high-level wastes from their temporary repositories close to sea-level, and nothing to prevent UF6 gas leaking into the atmosphere. So far, no environmental impact assessment of this situation has been made.
In the light of all this, it is clear that the way forward is to discard any pretence that any of the Big Four energy options are going to be available in the future. Nor is it realistic to hope that renewables will fill the energy gap, The only available option is a systems-approach to energy:
-
Step 1. Develop the conservation options and technologies as far as possible and with all speed.
Step 2. Move ahead with root-and-branch structural change in the whole pattern of energy use, based on the “proximity principle”, and following through the implications for transport, industry, food-production, leisure, land-use and settlement patterns. This has to be a bottom-up process, calling (at long last) on the intelligence and inventiveness of the people rather than relying on government regulation.
Step 3. Develop renewables systems and technologies to match the requirements of Steps 1 and 2. These will be to a large extent localised systems under local control and designed for particular local conditions and energy sources. Local self reliance, local responsibility, local monitoring and local intelligence will need to come together in local systems.
And these three steps – the Lean Energy formula – require a framework, guiding the energy descent, providing ample notice for the dramatic structural changes that will be needed, and guaranteeing all energy users a fair entitlement to supplies of energy throughout this long, ambitious, life-changing programme. Such a framework exists in Tradable Energy Quotas (TEQs), www.teqs.net (previously discussed on The Oil Drum here).
Conclusion
In this article, I have explained why nuclear energy will not provide solutions, or even a rational response, to the coming energy famine. The industry should now be required to use its remaining capability as a source of energy to deal with the legacy of waste which will otherwise be left to contaminate the planet in perpetuity. The implications of that legacy of waste being left untended indefinitely should as an overriding priority be scientifically assessed and published. And I leave you with the conclusion that, whatever details may still be missing from this under-researched subject, the nuclear energy is a life-cycle in trouble.The United Kingdom Government might think it is worth taking some of these remarks into account before going ahead with its planned new generation of nuclear reactors.




25% of the entire energy output of a reactor used to manage waste???
You do realise that the Storm-smith work has been entirely discredited?
Yes, there could be some fairly near term issues with Uranium supply, because the price has been unrealistically cheap for a long time. No, we will not run out in the forseeable future.
There is one question I'd really like you to answer - what would it take (in theory) to convince you that this 'Lean energy formula' is not the right way forward?
And what would it take "to convince you" that giant mining companies like BHP Billiton do not make a living out of seeking out expensive sources of uranium and other minerals?
Please take a look at:
The big hole
An even bigger hole
and let us know how to solve this problem.
Do you realise your comment has been entirely discredited? :-p
I expect better from TOD readers than that.
Storm has recently revised his work in response to various critiques.
By all means publish a critique of his current work, and link to it here in a comment.
Storm has recently revised his work in response to various critiques.
No they haven't. They issued a number of content free rebuttals about how their models are better than actual measured reality.
They're frauds.
It's so easy to call someone who says something unpalatable a fraud.
Feel free to publish a detailed rebuttal.
http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/SSRebuttalResp
The university of melbourne study actually measures energy inputs from mines and plants constructed, but hey, if it doesnt match your model, start making crap up I suppose.
Storm and Smith are prima donna liars with an axe to grind.
The Nuclearinfo site was a welcome dissection of the hyperbole of Storm van Leeuwen and Smith (SLS). In particular, it destroyed their claim that nuclear power's EROEI dips below one as ore grades are lowered by showing that SLS's predictive formulae for the energy requirements of uranium extraction overestimate energy use in existing mines by up to two orders of magnitude. With accuracy this suspect I find it suprising that any author would risk their credibility by basing their argument of future uranium scarcity solely on the work of SLS.
I recently discovered an even more detailed critique of their methods by Roberto Dones, a LCA researcher at the Paul Scherrer Institute, in Switzerland:
Critical note on the estimation by Storm van Leeuwen J.W. and Smith P. of the energy uses and corresponding CO2 emissions from the complete nuclear energy chain
Dezakin:
While the sheer scale of their exaggeration makes ad hominem attacks attractive, I find this approach counterproductive in convincing those who quote SLS. Although pointing out that they are solar power proponents who conducted their initial study at the behest of the ideologically anti-nuclear Green parties of the European Parliament is tempting. Just as one could quote David Fleming's belief that:
and ponder why he would question the viability of nuclear power.
Overall, though, I find it far more effective to merely state SLS's assumptions and follow through their logic with frequent comparison to reality. Playing the ball rather than the man really doesn't leave their supporters with much to throw back at you.
Having said all that...there's just something downright untrustworthy about a man with a handlebar moustache.

Jan Willem Storm van Leeuwen
rebutting some of this article:
In a comment that I have down below I list two companies (Sparton Resources of Canada and Wildhorse Energy. (5000-15000 tons of uranium per year from European flyash alone.)
http://www.wise-uranium.org/upeur.html#AJKA
Flyash is 160-180 parts per million uranium. 40 times better than granite.
Uranium mining info
http://www.wise-uranium.org/indexu.html#UMMCI
Uranium prices are substantially off of their peak
http://www.uxc.com/review/uxc_Prices.aspx
Only two thorium reactors in 2075 ? There is a project to make thorium fuel rods that can be used in most existing nuclear reactors. This seems likely to succeed in 3 years.
MIT Tecnology Review discusses the efforts to get thorium used in reactors for less waste (unburned fuel)
the Fuji Molten Salt Reactor (which could use thorium) seems to be 8-9 years from completion. The Fuji Molten salt reactor could burn 99.9% of the plutonium, uranium and thorium. So it would handle the waste issue and with profitable energy generation not some made up cost for waste handling.
The Hyperion power generation uranium hydride reactor scheduled for 2012 completion can also use thorium hydride A good hydride reactor design would burn 50% of the fuel instead of current 1-2% reducing fuel demand and leftover waste.
CANDU-type reactors - AECL is researching the thorium fuel cycle application to enhanced CANDU-6 and ACR-1000 reactors. With 5% plutonium (reactor grade) plus thorium high burn-up and low power costs are indicated. CANDU reactors can breed fuel from natural thorium, if uranium is unavailable.
The best way to get rid of the current and future waste is to build better reactors that burn all of the fuel and can generate electricity from existing waste.
The plan to use some expensive method to handle the unburned fuel is like saying if we used dollar bills for a nuclear waste incinerator it would cost a lot of money. Yes that would be expensive and an idiotic plan.
Amen --well said. And thanks for the excellent links.
Harm
Thanks for the comments referencing my post.
It is disappointing that certain data and projects is chosen to be ignored by many of those on the oil drum when it does not fit their pre-determined view. The lack of concern over air pollution deaths and ignoring solutions to flaws surrounding proposed alternatives.
Thanks advancednano ... some good links there.
Tell me, when you say the Thorium cycle "can" breed fuel grade U233 - what is the energy economics of that process ? ... is it a process that should be promoted irrespective of the available Uranium sources ?
Is that CANDU / AECL Thorium cycle really just R&D stage, or is there proven (economically viable) breeder technology from UK's previous "fast breeder" technology ?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-81620/thorium-processing
When bombarded by thermalized neutrons (usually released by the fission of uranium-235 in a nuclear reactor), thorium-232 is converted to thorium-233. This isotope decays to protactinium-233, which in turn decays to uranium-233.
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/2006/06/latest-developments-on-u-233-s...
If you get a mass of uranium 235 or plutonium or some other source of thermalized neutrons and put it with the thorium then you initiate the reactions which lead to uranium 233.
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com is the place to learn more.
Well, does this mean I have to do a complete rebuttal of the work every single time another indentikit green group uses it as a primary reference for another anti-nuclear screed? It's as bad as global warming denialists reusing the same arguments again and again and again..
I expect better from TOD contributors than to be uncritical of their sources.
I think the implied suggestion was that you could write a full and detailed article, then post it here on TOD or elsewhere, then every time the "wrong" ideas come up, you can just link them to your article.
I've done that with a few little issues, it saves me a lot of typing and hassle.
It'd also prevent the arguments from simply being, "I think X"
"X is wrong, and you're stupid if you think so."
"Why?"
"It's so stupid I don't even have to refute it."
"Well then, you poopyhead!"
"No, you poopyhead!"
Not terribly informative or useful.
Peak-Oil, Global Warming, Nuclear-Sustainability ... they all suffer from the same problem.
On the face of it they are "scientific" problems to be addressed "scientifically" - but there are just not enough hours in the day, nor enough good-will amongst the combatants, to construct logically watertight cases either way on every point of contention. (At least not before the resources run out.)
There will be exaggeration, incentives, hyperbole, interests, axe-grinding and good-old-fashioned rhetoric, you name it - so long as the method is (entirely) adversarial.
So, as we find (in the microcosm of this thread) that we have to use more than "science". We have to use "wisdom" and the appearance of handle-bar moustaches. Think about it (the value of good-will) and get used to it, quick.
(Interesting article and thread BTW - I must follow-up some of the secondary source references, in order to contribute.)
It is as bad, and also it is as helpful to government in protecting its future fossil fuel income. It makes sense that the tactics would be the same. Decent people whack the moles, AGW deniers/antinukes pop up previously whacked ones ready for another go.
How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?
Perhaps you can show how man can make machines that do not fail, then apply that to the most excellent history of the non-failure of fission power reactors and the most excellent history of the uranium processing industry.
Well, come on.
Wanna try?
fluffy,
Link to a long argument you or someone else has previously made on a subject.
As a blogger I find I do not to bore my regular readers by repeatedly saying the same thing at length. But that is why HTML has the "a href" tag. You can link to things.
Remember that some people who have never heard about some argument or study will first read you say something about it in a thread that does not necessarily have a link in it to the best arguments on the topic. Well, provide some links. Provide a useful public service to make the readers more informed.
Just saying that people are speaking nonsense is easy and lazy and I occasionally even do it. But resist the temptation. It is far more effective to link to useful information that rebuts what is being said.
Current price is an irrelevancy, to a large degree. The mining companies will be making decisions based on projected future prices.
The real limiting factors are environmental damage and EROEI, as Fleming states.
EROEI a problem? It has been well documented here numerous times that a nuclear power plant has an EROEI in one carefully measured example of 93. That is excellent compared to other power sources,
Whatever its EROEI today, it'll decline in future. This is for the same reasons as oil. You have two oil/uranium reserves - one is hard to get and not very rich, the other is easy to get and rich, which do you exploit first? So the easiest and richest ores have mostly been found, what's left is the harder to exploit stuff.
As it gets harder to get, and the ores drop in richness, the EROEI will drop, until at some point it drops below 1:1.
It's just the same as oil. We even get the same sorts of scams telling us, "oh but this particular really hard and polluting to extract source will give us enough forever! Totally, we wouldn't exagerrate just to get big investments, honest." Tar sands, in situ leaching, oil from chicken carcasses, thorium reactors, same shit, different shovel.
Whatever its EROEI today, it'll decline in future. At some point we're going to have to figure out ways to maintain civilisation without burning anything.
You realize even for light water reactors the ore density for most granites is well enough to be energy positive, and for breeder reactor regimes the energy density of any piece of average crust is several times that of coal.
The first is obviously untrue simply because different technologies have different energy cost ratios. Centrifuge enrichment is more than 50 times less energy intensive than gasseous diffusion enrichment, or for simple fuel consumption, liquid fluoride breeder regimes are 200 times as fuel efficient as light water reactor regimes. But when the energy cost of mining the fuel is less than 1/500th the energy produced from light water reactors, there isn't an urgency to move to more efficient techniques.
The point where we have to maintain civilization without burning nuclear fuel because of fuel exhaustion is very simply beyond the scope of argument. If you burn all the recoverable uranium and thorium in breeder reactors, thats 1 ton per GW/year. When theres 160 trillion tons of it in the crust and the solar flux is on the order of 10^16 watts, it would take some 16 million years to burn it all at a rate that doesnt start to literally melt the planet. The long term scalability bottleneck for nuclear power isn't fuel avaliability, its heat rejection...
I'm stunned by your level of optimism about nuclear power. It exceeds that even of BHP Billiton, various atomic energy promoters, and so on.
When your optimism is even greater than the people who stand to make literally billions of dollars from it, I think it's time to question just how much you really do know.
Liquid fluoride breeders? 1/500th? 1t per GWyr? 160 Tt recoverable? Apparently the laws of physics and chemistry are different in your universe. I hope you enjoy yourself there.
You're concerned about the energy cost of mining the Fuel right? After all, the other energy costs in nuclear power dont change with ore depletion, but the energy cost for fuel does.
http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/WebHomeEnergyLifecycleOfNuclear_Powe...
The Rossing mine produced 3037 tonnes of Uranium in 2004, which is sufficient for 15 GigaWatt-years of electricity with current reactors. The energy used to mine and mill this Uranium was about 3% of a GigaWatt-year. Thus the energy produced is about 500 times more than the energy required to operate the mine. The ore grade from the rossing mine is lower than most other comercial ore grades at 300 ppm.
This is measured energy cost of existing mine operations. I can't be optimistic about the past!
We can make a rather simple assumption that energy cost is inversely proportional to the ore grade:
http://nuclearinfo.net/Nuclearpower/UraniuamDistribution
The resource base from shales and phosphates on down with an energy payback ratio of 16-32 on the cost of mining the fuel in modern light water reactor regimes alone is 1 trillion tons of uranium, some 250000 years worth of fuel if you were running 20000 1GW reactors.
There may be other factors against large rampup of nuclear power, but fuel avaliability isn't one of them.
But if you must, teach me physics and chemistry, I'm eager to learn.
So, you're assuming all the other energy costs are magically constant? Not at all tainted by the cost of (nuclear) electricity? Or any other energy cost escalators (like fossil fuel depletion, etc)?
Hmmm, I think not.
Of course they're constant! The energy cost of manufacturing cement or refining steel or most of all enriching uranium is static. It takes 50MW to run a centrifuge enrichment plant weather you're getting the uranium from 20% ore or 20ppm ore. The only thing that costs more in terms of energy is the ore extraction.
So the energy costs of providing the energy aren't to be considered.
That is cheating!
Okay work it out for me. Say your mine consumes .03 GW/years to produces some 3037 tonnes of uranium at 300ppm. The energy return here is about 500.
Say you mine out all of this and are reduced to using ores at 150ppm requiring .06 GW/years for a similar amount of fuel, the energy return here is about 250. This doesn't cause the energy cost of the enrichment plant to double, or of the steel plant or the concrete plant.
I didn't say it would double, but as we move to more energy-expensive energy, there is an inflationary effect. Is it really that difficult to understand?
Okay, so you want to run the sigma all the way down the line to the beginning of time?
EnergyCost = DynamicCost + DynamicCost*energycost yesterday(...)
+ FixedCost + FixedCost*energycost yesterday(...)
This turns into an accountants paradise where you can prove left is purple and you paid your taxes up to 2373.
If the numbers dont add up the way you like, start including the energy budget of the accountants and hairdressers for the engineers that worked on the car that the plant operator used to drive to work.
Kiashu:
You have often asserted that the pro-nuclear side is populated by companies like BHP Billiton, but do you realize just how many large, established energy companies have a lot of skin in the game on the side of opposition to nuclear power?
Companies like Peabody Coal, Chesapeake Energy, Exxon-Mobil, Chevron, BP, Ashland Coal, ADM, GE, Siemens, and Aramoco all sell products that compete directly with nuclear fission power. In total, they make far more money than do the suppliers of nuclear fuels and nuclear power plants.
The world's current fleet of 440 nuclear power plants produce the energy equivalent of 12 million barrels of oil per day. Just imagine for a moment how different yesterday's headlines would be in an alternative reality where the developed world did not stop building nuclear power plants in the 1990s and instead continued on the building rate that had been established in the 1970s and 1980s. I figure that the contribution from nuclear power would be more like 50-60 million barrels of oil per day, and that the price of oil would be more like $20 per barrel than $100 per barrel. The difference in profits for coal, oil and gas companies is more than enough to make me suspect that they understand very well that opposition to nuclear power helps their bottom line.
As good investors, I would imagine that they have enjoyed the ROI that they have received on their well documented payments to anti-nuclear organizations like Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, and Rocky Mountain Institute. (The lists of donors can sometimes be found on either the donor or the receiver web sites and are also matters of public record in some cases.)
Apply some critical thinking and realize that there is lots of money at stake on both sides of the issue. Then start doing some detailed research and visit facilities from both the nuclear and fossil industries. After doing that, I think your views might begin to change.
Rod Adams
Editor, Atomic Insights
Founder and CEO, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
(not bragging, just disclosing my affiliation)
I'm quite aware that while the pro-nuclear side is populated by those who stand to gain from nuclear power financially, the anti-nuclear side is also populated by those who stand to lose from it financially.
But that does not make both sides equally prejudiced. After all, many large mining companies like BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto mine both uranium and fossil fuels.
Had we built more nuclear power stations, the use of oil would be very little affected; nuclear power generates electricity, while oil is used for transport, chemicals and plastics. Globally, very little oil is used for electric power generation. It's false to say that X number of power stations are equal to Y barrels of oil, because electric power is used for some things, and oil for others, and currently the overlap's not very large in proportion.
That's why I wouldn't say, "oh, if only we'd all built wind turbines in the 1970s, think of how much oil we could have saved!" That in itself would save us very little oil at all.
The promotion of nuclear may have had a significant contribution to the use of coal, however. But while that would help our fossil fuel depletion problem, it wouldn't help our climate change problem. The reason the world saw a slight cooling in the 1960-70 period was that many factories and power stations put aerosols into the air - basically, soot. The soot blocked some sunlight, contributing to cooling. But we decided we didn't like things like London's "pea soup fog" killing several thousand people on winter, so we insisted on reducing particulate emissions - less soot. More nuclear and less coal power would have meant no 1950-70 cooling period, and we'd be another part of a degree towards that 2C threshold of catastrophic climate change.
We'd also be a lot closer to uranium depletion.
I assure you, I've done detailed research of these issues, about as much as one can do without taking an actual academic qualification in the thing. Living in Australia, I've been unable to visit a commercial nuclear reactor, but I have visited our research reactor. For this reason, in Western countries I'm fairly confident about day-to-day safety of nuclear power generation. But I am not confident about long-term safety in the West, or day-to-day safety in the Third World. After all, if we're promoting nuclear energy as a replacement for fossil fuels, we're promoting nuclear energy not just for the US and Australia and France, but for Ghana and PNG and Kenya and Vietnam. I'm not at all confident in them.
But as I keep saying, we don't have to mention safety at all, really. The key point is that uranium, like fossil fuels, is a finite resource; whereas solar, geothermal, wind and tidal are effectively infinite. It's simply stupid to tap into a finite resource when we can tap into an infinite one.
How can you possibly have done detailed research on these issues and make the ridiculously obviously wrong statement that we would be 'A lot closer' to uranium depletion. Its trivially easy to illustrate how wrong that is.
This is silly. These are all finite. In fact, the ultimate production capacity of geothermal power is demonstrably lower than the production capacity of nuclear, and they all stretch out millinea.
But I am not confident about long-term safety in the West, or day-to-day safety in the Third World.
*clap*
*clap*
Now, come on you pro-nuke people! Step up and respond to this issue of failure!
Building more nuclear powerplants in industrialized countries makes them more stable, especially in an era of energy scarcity.
Kiashu:
Apparently your research was not quite as extensive as you thought. While it is true that there is little oil used in the US for electrical power generation today, that is a relatively new phenomenon. Oil has little market share in electricity in developed countries because it was displaced by nuclear power plants. In the early part of the 1970s, for example, oil held a 17% market share in the US electricity market. Nuclear power was close to zero at that time.
As oil left the electricity market, nuclear power increased its market share. It is pretty easy to draw the graphs from the Energy Information Agency web site Table 8.2a Electricity Net Generation: Total (All Sectors), 1949-2006 - http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0802a.html.
I have not found a similar link for the French experience, but I have read many histories that indicated that they were burning a lot of oil in their power plants before they made the decision to build nuclear plants. Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, and the UK all had similar experiences of replacing oil with nuclear and then having nuclear displace some other generation sources and supply part of the overall growth in the market.
My own personal experience with nuclear power plants is as a US naval officer - I can tell you without any possibility of contradiction that every single naval reactor is pushing a ship that would otherwise be burning oil. It has been at least 80 years since any country built a coal fired ship for their navy.
How can you be so certain of uranium depletion when you live in a country that has imposed a "three mines policy" that limited exploration and development of your vast land area to three already developed mines and you still supply about 25% of the world's uranium needs. Uranium is a fairly common metal with a concentration in the earth's crust that is about as high as tin.
With regard to your arrogant comments about using nuclear power in less developed countries, I can tell you that it is not really that hard to train people to do that job. By the time I was 27 years old, I was in charge of the engineering department on a submarine. We had about 40 nuclear trained people on the boat, most of them considered me to be old. Sure, establishing a cadre of well trained and experienced nukes is not an overnight task, but it certainly doable within a couple of decades, especially if the reactor systems are designed using the KISS principle.
Here is a paper that I wrote on the topic a couple of years after I founded AAE.
http://www.atomicengines.com/distributed.html
Rod Adams
Founder and CEO, Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
Hi Dezakin, You said ...
This is a line I wanted to follow ... seemed a crucial item missing from the article. I have only general knowledge on this ... could you suggest some reading to back that up ?
Thanks
Just arithmetic.
A fluid fuel thorium breeder reactor produces about 1GW/year electric per ton of thorium.
A coal power plant that produces about 1GW/year consumes maybe some 3 million tons of coal.
Average crust concentration of uranium is some 1-3ppm and thorium some 12ppm... lets round down to 10ppm for fissile material for the average crust.
.00001 * 3,000,000 tons... You get 30 tons of uranium and thorium from the same amount of rock you have as the coal used to power a coal power plant. Average crust has 30 times the energy density of coal.
The article is not missing a conclusion about granites' usability as net-energy-yielding ores: it says they cannot be such ores, yielding only 4 percent as much energy as the extraction would take.
It does not go into any detail, so you might want to stay tuned and see if Fleming gets around to responding to my request for elaboration.
How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?
This was an unready posting that I inadvertently sent in.
I hit Edit thinking one of the Edit options might be Delete,
but I don't see such an option.
The article is not missing a conclusion about granites' usability as net-energy-yielding ores: it says they cannot be such ores, yielding only 4 percent as much energy as the extraction would take.
It does not go into any detail, so you might want to stay tuned and see if Fleming gets around to responding to my request for elaboration.
How shall the car gain nuclear cachet?
Dezakin & GRLCowan ... Ah, sorry it was not the energy density of the raw material aspect that I was questioning ...
I can see that might be plausible - even if the numbers are contentious, and of course the whole energy economics of the extraction and refinement processes does indeed come into play too.
What I picked up on in your quote Dezakin, was your reference to ...
... that seemed to be missing from the debate so far as I had noticed ... Seems very important if we are talking about potentially scarce raw material that we can "breed" new fuel ... what are the actual feasibilities / numbers for such regimes in commercial powerplants ?
Breeder regimes are generally missing from the debate because one side claims them to be entirely unnecissary given the vast quantities of uranium extractable from ore bodies (1 trillion tons at 10-20 ppm would last light water reactors millinea) while the other claims breeder regimes are impossible because they've never been commercialized.
In my view, breeder regimes might be commercialized if they have demonstrable cost advantages beyond mere fuel economy.
The most viable candidate I feel is the liquid fluoride thorium breeder pioneered by ORNL and prototyped as a small multi-megawatt reactor, as it has several cost advantages, namely low pressure, high thermodynamic efficiency, proliferation resistance (due to U232 contamination) and completely eliminating the need for fuel fabrication and enrichment. Most importantly it wouldn't require the massive pressure vessels light water reactors require, eliminating a serious supply chain bottleneck and thus have potentially much lower capital costs.
That it would require 1/200th the fuel, thorium (which is 3 times as abundant as uranium) and the waste stream is 1/1000th that of a light water reactor are nice for public relations, but I feel unimportant for competitiveness of the reactor regime.
More information on such reactors are avaliable at Kirk Sorensen's excellent website:
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/
So, you build the test reactors, operate them for a decade to find any long term problem, build larger scale prototypes, operate them for 20 years or more to make sure the design is going to be cost-effective and not problematic, apply for regulatory approval, and then try build hundreds of them in a hurry, only to find that other resource shortages are hampering your construction efforts.
Thorium can't make more than a token contribution till at least 2050.
Perhaps, but this should end the line of argument that nuclear should not be pursued because there will be no fuel in 50 years if the fact that there are thousands of years of available Uranium does not.
Best Case scenario, I could see a majority of new start nukes being designed for thorium (or Th U mix) in thirty years. Add 4 to 7 years for completion.
A uranium supply crunch would be required to motivate this change. A "crunch" need not be permanent & depletion related, but could be due to several other factors.
Alan
Thanks Dezakin, great summary response. (More reference data in advancednano's response too)
If I may summarise ... sources of fuel are so abundant ... that the specific place of breeder regimes, in low-grade and waste processing technologies in general, is not a significant factor in the energy economics lifecycle.
Edit : Re-reading the original article in the light of your comments and advancednano's ... I see these breeder cycles and use of low-grade / low-grade processing / re-processing sources are in fact addressed ...
The question boils down to ...
The energy economics of the breeder / reprocessing cycles themselves, on proven commercial scales ?
The additional radiation lifecycle complications of the new mix of contaminant isotopes created during these cycles ?
Kiashu, you said ...
That is almost certainly true, but it makes a big difference to our strategies and options to address the issues, if the predicted decline below the demand curve is 10, 100, 1000, 1000000 years.
Certainly it's a big difference whether the decline is in 10 or 10,000 years. However, because uranium processing isn't as simple as "dig it up, chuck it in the burner" (as with coal), it's more likely that decline will be sooner rather than later. There are many places in the processing chain where it could hit a bottleneck. For example, all current mining is done with diesel and petrol-powered vehicles and diggers. We don't get 50 tonne electric diggers, nor is it clear that we could. Current reactor designs require the rods to be clad in zirconium, which must be cleaned of hafnium impurities, a very energy-intensive process; the stuff can be recycled, but that generates more radioactive waste, and is again very energy-intensive. And so on and so forth.
The uranium industry itself tends to give estimates of 30-100 years supply of uranium at current consumption; if nuclear power became a major contributor to our global electricity, obviously that supply wouldn't last as long. The further you get from guys in the mine digging the stuff up, the more optimistic the estimates get about longevity. So the miner will tell you 10 years, the mine manager 30 years, the company CEO 50 years, the national industry leader 100 years, the university professor 1,000 years, and some random dweeb on the internet 10,000 years.
I think that prudent public policy must err on the "realistic pessimistic" side, going to the middle in order of magnitude terms. So if someone says "10 years" and someone else "1,000 years", we should assume it's 100 years. Likewise, if some wind turbine maker tells us he can get a 40% load factor, and some NIMBY group says 10%, then 20% seems about right.
The thing is that if our public policy is pessimistic and things turn out better, we're no worse off; if it's optimistic and things turn out worse, then we're toast. So you know, people say, "oh but we're working on that technology, and when it's ready, everything will be sweet and easy." Whether it's thorium reactors or chlorophyll electricity generators, or hydrogen-powered flying cars, I say, "that's nice - get back to us when it's working smoothly."
One thing that's missing in these discussions is a serious look at NIMBYism. I believe in democracy, so I say, "okay, you don't want this in your backyard, fair enough - that's your choice. Well, do you want electricity at all? Yes? Okay, then - what do you want in your backyard?" Why should a particular form of power generation be forced on any community? Why not let them choose? "oh but they won't make rational choices!" What, you mean like when they choose an elected leader? I believe in democracy. Let the people choose. Let's have democratic power sharing.
If the people want nuclear power, they should have it. If they don't, they shouldn't. Let the people decide.
Yet we have been worse off with pessimistic nuclear policy for the last several decades. Hundreds of thousands of extra deaths each year because of air pollution when Europe and North America could have followed the lead of France and gotten rid of coal.
Allowing the choice of coal lets 30-50% of the air pollution from a country like China to get blown over to other countries. It is like global second hand smoke.
If the coal waste stream was contained (in dry casks) then it would not be anyone elses problem, but coal's waste stream is not contained. Instead there are billions of tons of particulates, tens of millions of tons of SOx, Nox and particulates. Thousands of tons of mercury and arsenic etc... Thousands of tons of uranium and thorium.
where are your references for the nuclear industry's statement on supply ?
I get nuclear industry statements of
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/cnf_sectionG.htm#uranium_supply
http://www.uic.com.au/nip75.htm
Most Uranium mining involves insitu leaching. Laying pipe into the ground and using acid to flush out Uranium. No big 50 ton diggers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-situ_leaching
Also in regards to 50 ton diggers or equipment. If you needed it and for some reason were short on oil you could use biodiesel for the heavy gear and use electric for lighter machines.
Your opinion does not correlate with actual deaths due to bad policy or with actual facts from quoted sources.
I think you're being unfair here. I'm not saying, "nuclear is bad, therefore we should use coal". I'm saying, "coal and nuclear are bad, therefore we should use renewables." Had I been Dictator of the World in 1955 or whenever Hubbert popped up, I would not have banned nuclear but promoted coal, rather I would have sought research in renewable energy.
As I've said the further you get from the miner at the face, the more optimistic the pronouncements on supply. But let's consider your quote. It's 200 years' supply at the current consumption rate. 16% the world's electricity is currently produced by nuclear reactors, so if we replaced all the coal-fired, etc, we'd need five times as many reactors again, and we'd have 200/5 = 40 years' supply. People promoting nuclear commonly disparage renewable, saying it could provide "only" 20% of total electricity supply, so let's assume 20% renewable + 80% nuclear, which means four times as many reactors again, and 50 years' supply.
Then let's consider that world demand for electricity is increasing. We find here that in 2005 the world had a total energy consumption of 15,500GW, or 2,325W of total energy use per person, and generally speaking the rise in demand since 1980 has been consistent, at 2% annually.
But of the 15,500GW, only 2,000GW is electrical energy today. And we find that this has had an average rise since 1980 of 2.79%.
So assuming that we could build all our 20% renewable and 80% nuclear reactors overnight, given a 2.79% increase in demand annually, our 50 years' supply doesn't last us from 2008 to 2058, but in fact gets used up by 2038. As any mortagee knows, compound interest fucks you.
Notice that they speak of deposits which are or aren't "economical" to mine. As with oil, coal and gas, we have to consider not cash but energy. If it takes you 2 barrels of oil-equivalent in energy to drill up 1 barrel of oil, you usually won't bother, it's easier just to burn the original oil itself. Many deposits of uranium in the world have a negative EROEI already, they've only been mined because their primary purpose was for nuclear weapons (eg in South Africa and Pakistan and Iran), or because though the diesel and so on used had more energy than the uranium, the diesel etc were cheaper in dollar terms. If I can buy 1bbl of oil for $100 and use it to get 0.5bbl of oil-equivalent in uranium worth $200, I'll do it. As anyone who's ever been poor and looked for the best calorie and protein value for their money knows, not all energy costs the same in dollars.
We don't care about dollar cost here. There is no question that whatever some resource costs, someone will pay the price. We care about EROEI. It's easy to count up the number of tonnes around, not always so easy to get them.
Phosphate deposits, I've not seen studies on their EROEIs. Of course a distinction would have to be made between phosphates mined solely for the uranium, and those mined for phosphate, with uranium as a waste byproduct.
In situ leaching uses large amounts of energy in creating the chemicals used for it. It also in many places offers a significant hazard to aquifers; around the world we suffer from aquifer depletion, it seems silly to risk poisoning the water we do have.
The uranium in seawater, the current technology isn't very good. Typical concentrations are 3.3mg/m3 of seawater; a 100% efficient process would require passing 303,000m3 - 303,000 tonnes - of seawater to extract 1kg of uranium. The adsorption plates would be substantial in size, on the order of several hectares, using a lot of resources, and require strong pumps - pumps requiring electricity.
The best technology even in prototype for extracting uranium from seawater used adsorption plates of 7-15m2 which were able to get on average 2g of uranium oxide over 60 days. 2g/11m2 means we'd require 5,500m2 to get 1kg in 60 days, or 330,000m2 to get 1kg/day. With 1km2 we could get 3.3kg/day. Current world uranium use is 78,458 tonnes U3O8 annually, or 215 tonnes daily, which would require 65,137km2.
If the nuclear power were ramped up from 16 to 80% of world electricity generation capacity, then we'd need 325,685km2 of adsorption sheets.
Of course, with fossil fuel depletion, more transport would have to become electrically-powered; remember only 2TW of our 15.5TW energy use is electrical, we can expect that proportion to increase as fossil fuels deplete. And again there's that annual 2.79% electricity demand increase, even with the current cheap fossil fuels.
325,685km2 of adsorption sheets to get uranium from seawater to provide 80% of our current electricity generation. When solar power proponents propose areas of even a tenth this size, they're mocked for being wildly ambitious. Exactly why 10,000km2 of solar cells is supposed to be crazy and impossible and too expensive to even contemplate, but 325,000km2 of uranium adsorption sheets is quite alright, is a mystery to me.
We see here with uranium a similar situation as with oil, coal and natural gas. What's important isn't the total amount, but how fast we can get at it. Uranium from seawater seems to be something like tar sands - sure, you can get the stuff out, but it's a lot of hassle, and very slow compared to the conventional means. That slowness is the key thing. Suppose we had a source of oil that could give us 1Mbbl/day for 1,000 years - it's not much help when demand is 85Mbbl/day. Well, same with uranium. So maybe a few tonnes of uranium, or even a few thousand tonnes, will be got from seawater. It seems very unlikely, but let's suppose it happens - well, it won't help the world overall much.
It may be argued that with research this or that nuclear energy technology will improve. But it can equally be argued that this or that solar or wind or geothermal or wave or tidal technology will improve, and pro-nuclear or pro-fossil fuel advocates do not commonly accept that.
With all energy generation and use, we must consider what is available and working today. We can't plan for the future based on what might work someday.
You honestly believe that? Are you entirely unfamiliar with the Rossing mine data? The ore grade is 300ppm, lower than most historic ores, and the measured energy used was .03 GW/years for one year to produce over 3000 tons of uranium which burned in light water reactors would produced over 15 GW/years.
Cite which uranium deposits have higher energy costs to mine than they yield in fuel, cause I'm betting you're just making crap up.
Rossing Mine info:
http://www.rossing-com.info/index.htm <-- Rossing Mine Hompage (Highly recommended)
http://www.wise-uranium.org/umoproe.html <-- Rossing Mine Issues (Highly recommended)
Google Maps View of Mine -- Low res in primary mine area, high detail tailings shown at south end
Factoids: (From above links)
BTW, http://www.wise-uranium.org looks to be a superb resource to anyone interested in uranium projects.
But we can't build overnight so why start with a fairy tale assumption. Just so you can say that if we miraculously changed the situation in consumption of uranium than production of uranium would not adjust properly ? How about that wind power takes ten times as much concrete and steel per MW as nuclear ?
Almost all poisoned water is unrelated to nuclear mining. China has dead rivers and polluted lakes from oil and coal use and other industrial processes. Your statements seem to assume that only problems from nuclear count that problems from other sources do not matter and are not considered.
You look at some the EIA statistics. I am saying nuclear is 10,000 times better than coal and the WORLD WAS and IS primarily using coal for electricity. According to the statistics of reality. You say it is unfair. Are people dieing now or not from air pollution from our current energy sources ?
You can say "coal and nuclear are bad but that is what is being used". It is not the ethics of a fairy tale time travel scenario. The equivalent fairy tale is if you are at the battle of Moscow in WW2 and millions are being killed around you and you suggest, you know if I had been in charge forty years ago I would have killed the young Hitler and Stalin and this would not have happened. The Russian soldiers would have looked at you and said "how does that stop us from getting killed now ?".
Air pollution from energy usage (indoor and outdoor) is killing 4.5-6 million people per year now. (World Health Organization stats). 300,000+ Europeans. 30,000+ in the UK, 60,000+ in the USA. This is the urgent problem to be fixed and it is a big one. The numbers are more than from almost any war and are more than WW2 and WW1 when you factor in that is goes on for more years without let up.
But renewables likes solar and wind. Solar in 2006 was 1/30th of 1%. Wind and solar are less than 1%. If we were to start running out of cheap Uranium in 2038 then
1. we should have started to make a lot of the more efficient reactors that I have been pointing out
2. we will have bought more time for solar and wind to scale up to something useful
3. We would have saved tens of millions of lives
Analogy, if coal and diesel were a physical army. They are lining people up and shooting them 10,000 to 15,000 every day. If you start getting a hundred away every day by building or increasing the power from each GW of nuclear plants then why would you say let us wait 20-40 years longer until we can scale up solar and wind.
World EIA base projection of electricity supplies. Half of the world electricity is coming from coal. Less electricity generation from any other non-coal source means more goes to coal.
International energy usage base forecast (coal is increasing). The renewables is mainly hydroelectric power.
Here is a summary of various studies of EROI for different energy sources
However, with nuclear power I have already indicated that there are nuclear plants that use 40-100 times less uranium or thorium to generate the power. So we can reduce the amount of that material from 75,000 tons for the same power to 750-1500 tons. Also for uranium from seawater.
Link to polyethylene production.
http://www.unipack.ru/eng/exhibition_page/1/2007/2/
You can divert 1% of the polyethylene for 10 years when you decide to scale up the seawater extraction. Then you can make a little over 1 of the 10,000/ton year processes each year. In ten years you have 100,000/ton year. The world capacity of polyethylene productio