The Oil Drum: Europe

75 comments on It's no longer 'oil', it's 'liquids'

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marcosdumay on October 31, 2007 - 12:16pm

"size of European states, these vast monocultures have replaced important eco-systems"

Yep, it is a problem. But as far as monocultures go, sugar cane is one of the best to have. There are little problems with pests and very little (if any) soild deletion. Also, an european state is normaly quite small.

"Financially, once an economy comes dependent on a single crop..."

Yees, that happens if an economy is dependent on a single crop, and you have an agricole economy. Nedless to say that Brazil is far from both. (Do I need to say again that an european state is normaly quite small?)

"Add to that the lack of clear proof regarding a positive energy return on most corn based ethanols (sugar cane being an exception and to some degree cellulosic)"

Yes, sugar cane is an exception.

"Keep in mind that current crop yields are dependent on the FF fertilizers, herbicides, and pesticides, and without them you are looking at a reduction of crop yields."

Not a lot for sugar cane. Sugar cane is mostly planted on bad terrains (but not as bad as Amazon), where nothing else would grow, uses very little fertilizers and pesticides. Also, it doesn't use herbicides at all (unless you are trying to get rid of the cane, but cows are better for that task anyway).

"If we increase the crop size we will quickly hit peak water."

I don't know if there are exceptions, but people don't irrigate cane.

Ethanol from sugar cane works. Get over it. The only problem you can point is that it is not enough.

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Enviro Tech on October 31, 2007 - 2:24pm

I believe I DID say sugar cane works... The post before mine referred to CORN ethanol - I intended to respond primarily to THAT. I aplogize if I made that unclear

My post was written in mostly in response to CORN ethanol (plant in switchgrass and whatever else you want for corn that can be grown in temparate climates)

and for a point of reference, one of the smallest EU states is Luxemburg with a size of 999 sq miles. I know, there are other farms out there with crop fields ranging in this magnatude, but "just because others do something, doesn't make it right".

MS in Ontario Canada

In the coming battle between the 'rightness' of our economic model, and the geological limits to growth, I have a strong suspicion that the geologic limits may win.

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Dennis Brumm on October 31, 2007 - 5:48pm

Despite sugarcane having a higher energy return, people I know who lived in Brazil when it was started have not painted it as a giant rosy picture at the time. Also their production of sugarcane, and more soy to replace supplies from the US going to biodiesel are pushing other crops deeper into the rain forest for arable land.

Also they have a hell of a lot fewer cars which means they DRIVE a lot less than we do; we already outproduce them in ethanol (with no end in sight to our biofuels thirst, oh, unless a nice recession pushes the price of oil way back down for awhile).

http://www.sfbayoil.org/sfoa/myths/index.html