Energy: the fundamental unseriousness of Gordon Brown

The Guardian reports this morning on a private report to Gordon Brown that suggests that Britain should oppose binding target for renewable energies in Europe (20% of all energy by 2020, as agreed earlier this year at this spring's EU Summit). The Guardian flags the juicy political bits ("work with Poland and other governments sceptical about climate change to "help persuade" German chancellor Angela Merkel and others to set lower renewable targets", "a potentially significant cost in terms of reduced climate change leadership"), but also provides some of the apparent underlying reasons provided, which are worth commenting upon:

  • it undermines the carbon-trading scheme which "allows wealthy governments to pay others to reduce emissions";
  • it costs too much money (£4 billion a year to get to 9% by 2020);
  • it does not help push for new nuclear plants as it "reduces the incentives to invest in other carbon technologies like nuclear power";

Let's say it plainly: each of these arguments is stupid, short-sighted and, quite simply, false. Let me take you through them in turn (under the fold).

"it undermines the carbon-trading scheme"

Well, it "undermines it" if the only goal of the ETS (European Trading Scheme) was to allow 'rich countries' to avoid actually doing anything about carbon emissions. That report seems to provide a major insight in how some people treat climate change (and peak oil): they are grudgingly admitting that something should be done, but are adamant that it should not be them - thus their goal is to set a price, as low as possible, to be able to pass on their "something to be done" to someone else while not changing a thing about how they live, burn oil and spew carbon.

There is a real case for emissions trading, in that it can indeed make it possible for investors to come up with the smartest and cheapest ways to lower carbon emissions, and get credit for it - and get those that are emitting carbon, but find it difficult to do so, to pay for it. It costs pretty much the same to install a solar panel in Spain or in Denmark, but the gain will be much larger in Spain, so it is not unreasonable to focus efforts in the solar sector in Spain rather than in Denmark, and trading rights and obligations between countries is indeed a way to do that. Overall, for a given target for emissions reductions, trading can make the overall cost (or effort) smaller by focusing it on the easiest gains. In that perspective, setting a 20% globally for Europe, and not the same target for each individual country, can be acceptable.

But if the goal is explicitly to do as little as possible, as is hinted in the leaked memo, one can expect that the political strategy will be to set up the trading mechanism, and then lobby within that system to make the cost of non-compliance as low as possible, while keeping it fully legal and letting participants able to claim the moral high ground: "we" reduced emissions by x...

Thus, the level of the carbon emission reduction target has no incidence on the effectiveness of the trading scheme, as the goal is totally separate from the instrument. What that memo states is that the higher (and individualised) target levels will make it impossible for Britain to get away with doing little while pretending to be virtuous.

it costs too much money

Wind, the technology that offers the best prospects for large scale energy generation at reasonable cost at this point in time, still requires some subsidies to be profitable in the current environment. In the short term, it is already cheaper than power generated from gas-fired plants (the break-even is around 6-8c/kWh/4-5p/kWh, or $50/bl of oil), but as its cost is essentially constant over a very long time (mainly the repayment of the initial capital investment), investing in wind today requires that prices for oil and gas be above such levels constantly for the next 15 years, which is not yet a bet that investors and their bankers are willing to make (we're getting there, though). So a basic level of support is indeed still required - but it can be reduced over time, provided that it is made in a way that never compromises the viability of the support scheme (Spain has done this very well).

And, of course, counting "cost" only as the upfront spending needed to support investment without counting the avoided cost of the alternatives (carbon emissions, coal mining pollution, not to mention the security of supply issue for gas that so worries our politicians nowadays) is profoundly dishonest, but on par for people that refuse to see "costs" other than expressed in money terms - and spend all their time trying to reduce those that would fall on them by artificial means.

Additionally, there are two underestimated sources of value for society of renewable energy: (i) the first one is the cap on power prices provided: the cost of wind or other renewables is set for the next 15 years and will NOT change. At a time of rapidly rising oil&gas prices, such guarantee should have a very real value; (ii) the second effect, noted in some studies is that as the short term cost of renewables is essentially zero, the displace more expensive power sources whenever they are used, thus lowering the marginal cost of electricity and thus market prices. So every kWh of wind power produced actually lowers prices for consumers - and the overall savings can be significant.

So the claim that renewables claim money is made on very narrow grounds and, on a society-wide basis, is fundamentally false.

it does not help push for new nuclear

This has to be the silliest argument of all. I know that many opponents of nuclear argue that wind (together with energy savings) could provide enough power on its own, but most proponents of nuclear retort that wind cannot, rather than should not, replace nukes. In any case, that debate, which makes sense about the very long term, is of no incidence when we're talking about providing 20% of energy from renewables. That still leaves 80% of energy (and a significant chunk of power generation) to be provided by other sources. In particular, the vast majority of power generation in most countries is provided by burning coal and gas. It can be argued (as nuclear proponents indeed do) that nuclear is the only large scale technology that can replace coal on the scale it exists today, for regular always-on baseload power. Coal is the actual "enemy" of nuclear generation, because it exists, it is de facto subsidized as its externalities are still poorly taken into account and thus appears cheap, and it is a lot easier to get built than nuclear (easier permitting process, smaller investment sizes, lots of vested interests). The development of wind is essentially irrelevant to what will happen to nuclear.

The objections to nuclear are only occasionally that the money would be better spent on wind - rather, they are about the fact that issues like waste, catastrophic accident insurance, safety and industry regulation have not been properly addressed, and that transparency is seen as weak.

Everything points towards the absolute compatibility of pro-wind and pro-nuke policies for those that want to pursue both, and attempt to ram through nuclear power plants by killing renewables should be seen as what it is: narrow-minded, unaccountable and stupid (and probably corrupt) decision-making which confirms the suspicions aired about the industry.

Altogether, that leaked memo shows that our politicians still do not see climate change as a real issue - they see it as a political game: people care about it, so noise needs to be made about it, but actual policy making still is, so far, totally cut off from the underlying reality.

It's worrying enough to think about the kind of shock that will be needed for them to actually care about the issue (New Orleans was not enough in the US, will the price be as high in Europe?) - but it's even more worrying to know that, when the shock does come, the response will not be to finally go for what would make sense, but to look for scapegoats, internal (greens, PC do-gooders) and external (Iran, Russia, China, etc... take your pick), because it will be so much easier than facing up to reality.

Speaking of nuclear:

British Energy shares slide on output concerns

Shares in British Energy dived 8 per cent yesterday as problems at two of its nuclear power stations threatened to slash output a year after boiler cracks forced two of its other plants to close all winter.

British Energy shares led the FTSE 100 index down after the UK's biggest power generator said it had shut two more reactors after finding an "issue related to a wire winding" in the boiler closure unit at its Hartlepool-1 plant.

The weekend closures left almost half of British Energy's nuclear reactors offline yesterday morning and revived memories of its Hinkley Point and Hunterston nuclear power stations being closed throughout last winter.

Brown should pray for a warm winter...

Speaking of market mechanisms: an Op-Ed in yesterday's FT:

Energy liberalisation leads to higher prices

(...) what is liberalisation expected to achieve? A more competitive and transparent market and thereby lower prices is the stock reply. A possible relationship between liberalised markets and security of supply has been a more recent emphasis.

Such aspirations could be dismissed on the grounds that the gas and electricity industries are inherently unsuitable industries for competition. Here, though, I would like to challenge them by drawing attention to the impact of liberalisation on the three main cost components that make up the prices paid by households (...) the wholesale cost of gas and electricity, the cost of transmission and distribution and the cost of supply (billing and marketing).

(...)

First, as should be anticipated, liberalisation increases aggregate supply costs for domestic customers (increased marketing costs, duplicated billing infrastructure, switching costs etc). Second, the level of these costs can be unrelated to the actual cost of supply as energy companies defend or increase their downstream profit margins. Third, while supply costs for gas and electricity should not be too different (the billing process is the same), in 2006 they were only £16 for gas, but jumped to £88 for electricity - providing a clear indication that a squeeze on gas supply margins brought about by the rising wholesale cost of UK gas was compensated for at the expense of electricity customers.

Full liberalisation in electricity and gas has either not got off the ground or has died a death elsewhere in the world. Through its impact on wholesale pricing and on supply costs and margins it is likely to result in both higher and more arbitrary prices, as well as making a lottery of investment incentives. But the European Commission presses on regardless at the expense of addressing more urgent energy problems. Somewhat ironically, its efforts are mainly sustained by the UK.

On wholesale markets, the author has this to add:

The impact of liberalisation on wholesale costs is problematic in that short-term markets increasingly price electricity or gas delivered under long-term contracts. Such indexation to short-term markets (for example to month-ahead or day-ahead prices) is wrongly seen as a virtuous indicator of liberalisation, when in fact these markets establish a volatile flexibility premium as buyers and sellers seek to balance their positions when delivery day approaches and options increasingly diminish.
To counterpose them with "old-fashioned" long-term contracts and allow them to set a price for baseload supplies contracted for perhaps years in advance of a delivery day is therefore misplaced - such long-term supplies are more appropriately indexed to a wider basket of commodities, including alternative fuels, in order to reflect the different risk profile they offer. This is not a trivial matter: gas indexation has ruined otherwise viable businesses in the UK and made long-term investment decisions hazardous.

(Note - investment banks and traders love volatility - it's a great source of profits for them. In essence, deregulation has forced utilities to outsource volatility management - with the added twist that they pay more for it than before...)

Can Gordon Brown be as ignorant of the world oil supply situation as he appears to be, or has it been agreed at the highest level of OECD governments to play dumb, in the hope (or expectation?) that the markets will send a sufficently strong (but not catastrophic) signal that a wave of just-in-time innovation and investment acheives a relatively smooth transition to alternative energy ?

I suspect that the powers-that-be may think they are being rather clever in NOT taking any mitigation steps.
"Look, no hands !" they seem to saying.
Such people no doubt view the typical TOD-er is a naiv babe in arms who has no grasp of the wonders of modern economics.

Gordon Brown has close family connections to the nuclear industry. His younger brother Andrew Brown works for EDF Energy, the UK subsidiary of EDF, which operates nuclear power stations in France, and which is one of the leading companies pushing for a nuclear rebuild programme in the UK. Andrew Brown was appointed as EDF Energy's Head of Press on 13 September 2004. Previously, he worked for the lobbying company Weber Shandwick

http://www.nuclearspin.org/index.php/Gordon_Brown

Gordon Brown has the soul of an accountant.

They, and their self-important kin, the economists, really do believe that because they put a number in a spreadsheet things magically appear. They've never had to deal with reality, instead they deal with man-made numbers - usually trying to play tricks to make the numbers dance to their liking. The real world is immune to their charms, and like the spurned suitor they react badly by trying to block it out.

All the while he is in charge we will have substantial attempts to maintain the status quo on all fronts. Nothing new will happen that doesn't lead to a new tax.

I once had two job interviews in one day. The first, the shortest interview I've ever had, was for a maths programmer in nuclear fusion research. I couldn't answer the first question. Great place to visit, very friendly. Lunch was a sandwich at your computer desk sitting in a very tatty chair. We were surrounded by millions if not billions of $ worth of experimental kit.
The second interview was with an insurance company. Full hospitality suite with free booze, everyone in suits, lots of group sessions to see who would fit with the corporate personality profile. Later we were shown the office we would be working in. After two years we would be given a plusher chair and sit next to somebody vaguely important...

I tried to explain in my interiew that the difference between science and economics, was that one tried to fit the rules to reality, and the other tried to fit reality to the rules. I didn't get that job either.

A true scientist must love truth.

Economist is better off loving power (and proxies of it, like money).

This is another fundamental difference.

To go into economics is to love power and to yield power, and truth can always be bent.

To go into pure science (again), is to have very little or specific domain limited power, but to truly understand how things work.

No wonder the two don't mix so well :)

On Financial Times Website now:

I think it will disappear behind a paywall soon

Efforts to build a new generation of nuclear power plants are under threat from staff shortages, Whitehall disputes over investment in renewables and how to deal with nuclear waste, according to leaked documents from the government department overseeing the programme.

The problems could mean “any nuclear programme would have to be put on hold from April 2008” – the government’s planned start date – according to documents seen by the Financial Times. The documents form a “script” that John Hutton, business secretary, will present to Gordon Brown.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/26dd1cc0-81a1-11dc-9b6f-0000779fd2ac.html?ncli...

Carbon -Coventry UK

The US isn't the only nation that has failed to educate its youth in the skills that will be in great demand in the future. Nice to know that the EU also suffers from globalization. It still amazes me how the things we could do in the 1960s and 70s is beyond our reach today.

I do not agree that the information provided in the story necessarily demonstrates that Brown is unserious about addressing climate change. His government may believe that setting too high a target for renewables compared to nuclear might actually impare how much can really be accomplished to mitigate global warming.

I think the best way to mitigate global warming is to build nuclear, wind and solar as fast as possible. There is some mix of these which will provide the best possible result. This mix does not necessarily include 20% renewables if that slows down how much they build up nuclear. The other objections to nuclear (all of which I believe can be adequately addressed) do not bear on how effectively it can displace coal in the current power grid, which needs to be the main goal in order to reduce global warming.

Sterling;
While I am a regular and vocal opponent of Nuclear on this site, I have generally chosen to put more of my energy into advocating for the sources I DO want instead of working against those I oppose (at least when the discussion has reached the 'vicious circle' stage).

I'm not sure I understand, however, the connection you've tried to make as far as Investment in Windpower subverting simultaneous efforts to develop Nuclear Energy. Is it just that 'there are only so many new-source dollars available, and too many are being given to wind'? I don't know if I can buy that. I'm watching these stories of renewed interest in Nuclear, and I'm sure there is some heavy investment there, but I also wonder how wary the Energy Investors are about payback, as construction costs shoot up, delays turn projects into double their initial projections, and probably most importantly, the return time is so slow for Reactors, where Cogen and Wind are up and running in a few months to a couple years.. Amory Lovins has argued that the intrinsically poor economics of Nuclear is what has done the real damage to its growth, and unless the glowing promises of big technology advances or a great reduction in construction costs and lead-times comes true, is unlikely to gain much advantage as we continue forward.

PDF - File
http://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Energy/E05-14_NukePwrEcon.pdf
"Figs. 1–2 (pp. 2–3) show that in 2004, when U.S. windpower additions were artificially depressed, decentralized low- and no-carbon generation worldwide nonetheless outpaced nuclear power by nearly sixfold in annual capacity additions and nearly threefold in annual output additions, and was pulling away rapidly. This occurred at a substantial scale, four times that of U.S. nuclear power—adding 28 GW to the 2003 global decentralized-generation base of ~383 GW— and was achieved despite nuclear power’s generally higher subsidies per kWh (with modest exceptions, notably in Germany) and its far easier access to the grid. This speed disparity, probably more than doubled by efficient use (pp. 3–4), reflects the decentralized competitors’ basic
advantages, such as short lead times, modularity, economies of mass production, usually mild siting issues (excepting such pathological cases as Cape Cod wind), and the inherently greater speed of technologies that are deployable by many and diverse market actors without needing complex regulatory processes, challengingly large enterprises, or unique institutions. As either nuclear power or its decentralized supply- and demand-side competitors grow, it’s hard to imagine how this balance of speed could ever shift in favor of nuclear power—the quintessentially big, long-lead-time, delay-prone, lumpy, complex, and contentious technology, and one that a single major accident or terrorist attack could scuttle virtually everywhere." p.11

Appropriately,Lovins does also mention the relationship he sees between Nuclear Proponents and Carbon Taxing, to tie this back in with Gordon Brown's stellar leadership move..

"Standard studies compare a new nuclear plant only with a central power plant burning coal or natural gas. They conclude that new nuclear plants’ marked disadvantage in total cost might be overcome if their construction became far cheaper, or if construction and operation were even more heavily subsidized, or if carbon were heavily taxed, or if (as nuclear advocates prefer) all of these changes occurred. But those central thermal power plants are all the wrong competitors. None of them can compete with windpower (and some other renewables), let alone with two far cheaper resources: cogeneration of heat and power, and efficient use of electricity." (Top of P.7)

But back to the initial point.. Why does investment in Windpower, assuming it is a smart investment, SUBvert investments in Nuclear, if the same assumption can be made for it?

Best,
Bob Fiske

in 2004, when U.S. windpower additions were artificially depressed, decentralized low- and no-carbon generation worldwide nonetheless outpaced nuclear power by nearly sixfold in annual capacity additions and nearly threefold in annual output additions

Be careful with the data cherry picking. In the period 1997 -2005 US nuclear added 152 billion kilowatt hours/year of actual generation compared to 15 for Wind and that is without adding any new plants.

Another thing to keep in mind is that nuclear generation is more valuable for global warming mitigation than is wind or solar. Nuclear directly displaces coal generation (the primary GW problem) while wind and solar do not. Nuclear could displace all dirty generation or at least 80% with the remaining 20% from sources that are relatively clean and dispatchable, like hydro or gas (while we still have it).

The problem for wind and solar is that the currently electricity system is demand driven with significant variable demand depending on time of day, time of year and the weather. Wind and solar are at best weakly coordinated with periods of high demand and their output often goes to zero. Without viable storage (whose cost is counted in the cost of generation), there is a limited market for such variable power and it is not clear that it is as high as 20%. I am not convinced that people would put up with a Bagdad model (long, regular periods without power) if they knew that we could have gone with nuclear instead and preserved the current always available characteristics of the system.

Nuclear does have long lead times but we could start a big build up that builds thousands of reactors in 50 years. That is consistent with the expected decline in fossil fuels. It is the time to get started that is the issue. Regarding cost, the oil industry is expecting to need $20 trillion between now and 2030 chasing their hopeless targets. That would buy about 7,000 reactors.

Look, I support wind and solar. We should build them as fast as we can consistent with our ability to use them in a market that is plausible. But I think they max out far before we solve the problem. Contrary to the title of this article, I think that those who do not favor a big nuclear build up are not serious about global warming mitigation.

It is impressive the gains nuclear made without adding new plants.

A problem I see is that the levels of subsidy for nuclear are fuzzy.

How can the subsidy playing field be leveled?

If govts. were to offer a $0.04 / kWh (but no other subsidies) for solar, wind and nuclear, a lot of wind would be built, a lot of solar thermal, but no nuclear.

Nuclear needs subsidies for construction, insurance against catastrophic accidents, R/D, and maybe mining.

Although it is unlikely to happen, I think it would be nice to equalize the subsidies. Each year, for example, wind, solar and nuclear would each an equal amount of money.

This could be used to subsidize the construction of nuclear reactors, nuclear reactor R/D, or anything the nuclear subsidy distribution committee felt would be worthwhile.

Meanwhile, the solar and wind distribution committees would decide how to allocate the funding: operational per kWh subsidies, R/D, construction loan guarantees, or whatever.

If any of the power generation approaches was innately less economic, it would naturally fall behind.

Although it is unlikely to happen, I think it would be nice to equalize the subsidies.

Why? The objective is to transition from fossil fuels while reducing green house gases, isn't it? It is not to distributes the public spoils. We should do what it takes to build the mix that best serves society, right?

Right, we want to build the mix that best serves society.

The obvious approach which I mentioned first would do that, giving a per kWh subsidy that is the same for each energy source.

The most cost effective and efficient sources of energy would win.

However, nuclear would lose out, because even with a generous per kWh subsidy, private money would still not build any plants.

The second suggestion was a possible way around that problem.

However, nuclear would lose out, because even with a generous per kWh subsidy, private money would still not build any plants.

Then giving every source the same subsidy would not necessarily achieve our objective of building the mix that best serves society.

The most cost effective and efficient sources of energy would win.

I think it is more complicated than that. We have to decide, Do we want a system where production meets demand or do we want to tolerate shortages and ration? If we want the kind of system that we have now and we want to reduce global warming as much as possible, how do we do that? If we just leave it all to a free market, can we be assured that all the costs like waste cleanup and living with shortages will really be reflected in the market over the long term?

In a free market, the most cost effective solutions generally win. In this case we are discussing using govt. subsidies to "augment" or "distort" the free market.

While some purists oppose all subsidies on principal, they can be a valuable tool to accelerate the development of useful technologies.

It sounds like you are assuming that using only per kWh subsides will result in shortages and rationing, or that unless nuclear power receives more substantial subsidies we will have shortages.

I am not convinced that this would be true, as I think that microgeneration, renewables, conservation, and energy storage advances will work together keep the system robust.

Why do you feel there be shortages and rationing if nuclear does not receive substantial subsidies?

Why do you feel there be shortages and rationing if nuclear does not receive substantial subsidies?

Because, as you said earlier, this might result in nuclear not being built. If we were to rely only on wind and solar and have no baseload generation and dispatchable reserve as we have now then we would be building a system that has chronic shortages by design. At night, when the wind is not blowing, you get no power. The assumption seems to be that we can fit up to 20% intermittent power into the current system without effecting its power on demand characteristic. I am not sure that is true and instead advocate the we build nuclear, wind and solar as fast as we can and see what mix works best. I suspect that wind and solar will max out long before nuclear because nuclear can do baseload and completely eliminate coal plants while wind and solar cannot.

Pumped hydro storage can convert wind and solar to dispatchable reserves at a penny or two per kwh.
And of course, plenty of onshore and offshore locations have wind at night (you have obviously never been to Wyoming, Colorado or the Aleutians).

Pumped hydro storage can convert wind and solar to dispatchable reserves

OK, but then it still only displaces the other dispatchable reserves (gas and hydro) and not the coal baseload, which runs as the same level no matter what. That does not really help mitigate climate change. To displace the coal baseload, you need a nuke. And you have to count the cost of building the pumped storage, the cost of its operation (electricity to pump the water up hill) and the energy lost in the process into the cost of wind and solar operations, which limit their operating attractiveness. But it is still a good idea.

If you build enough wind generation, and enough pumped storage / interconnection to back it up, then it's obvious that you can shut coal generation down. A simple carbon tax provides the necessary market signal.

Perhaps, but all the wind generation along with pumped storage would be pretty expensive to build and operate. How much additional capacity would you have to build into it to cover a prolonged wind drought? With global warming, today's wind patterns might change in unpredictable ways and we might badly miscalculate how bad the wind droughts could be. Might it not be better to build nukes to take out all the coal and build your part to supplement/displace the existing dispatchable reserve gas, keeping enough gas to cover the wind drought?

Without major subsidies, it does seem unlikely any new nuclear plants will be built.

However, much can change in the 13 years before 2020 when the first of the new nuclear plants would come on line. To justify these subsidies for nuclear, we need to gamble that superior technologies will not be available in 2020.

This is the main reason private investment does not like nuclear.

A subsidy that does not require such a long term gamble is a per kWh subsidy for power generated. Private investment can fund wind and solar plants that come online 12 to 24 months after the decision to go foward, maximizing the changes that the plant will give the anticipated return on investment (factoring in the subsidy or carbon tax).

Your point is that neither wind nor solar is a direct replacement for existing generation is obviously true. The decision to apply present-day funding to nuclear vs. other promising technologies would ideally be made based on careful analysis of probabilities.

I can think of several emerging technologies would work with wind and solar in a practical system, that could be quite mature by 2020.

Lithium batteries
Solar thermal plants with thermal storage
Flywheel storage
Flow batteries
Coal gasification with carbon sequesterization via terra pretta
Organic material gasification with carbon sequesterization via terra pretta
High efficiency LED lighting

The real killer is energy efficiency. Already, I have a cloths washer that uses 0.15 kWh per load, lighting is making great strides, and organic LED flat panels use miniscule amounts of power. With high degrees of efficiency, the storage required for household power is semi-affordable even now.

If the money needed to subsidize nuclear plant R/D and construction was put into the above technologies, I would be very surprised if they did not provide a robust power system. Even without heavy subsidies, they should do very well.

Sterling;
I won't deny that Lovins' assessment overlooks expansion of existing sites' capacity, but that is, of course also an outgrowth of the burden of getting new plants initiated.

This is a rough week to make claims that nuclear is going to be our steady and constant source of baseload power.. It is as long as it works. India's 'above-ground-factors' are different from England's and US's, but it still leaves many reactors dark..

The idea of the 'Baghdad Model' is cute. It's a battle-torn city amid a mismanaged oil-war, BUT it still gets lots of Sun every day. I wouldn't expect residents to refuse an offer to get panels on their roofs, so they at least have a guarantee of some 10 hours every day. Can you imagine trying to get an investor to back a couple reactors for that city? Of course, the priorities that govern the use of US Tax dollars there probably means there are some underway already, but how much will you have to pay the drivers to get the fuel to the site? To say you support wind and solar, but compare those alternatives to Baghdad is diversionary at best.

"Nuclear directly displaces coal generation (the primary GW problem) while wind and solar do not." Of course they do, unless you have to interject the provision that the only real power is steady-perpetual power, a fantasy we're stuck in after 4-5 generations of cheap oil. This argument that says 'we have a demand model, and so must bend over backwards to maintain a demand model' is basically a euphemism for 'Our lifestyle is not negotiable.' We are accustomed to eating cake.. the solution for the future is not to assume that we have to create a perpetual cake industry. Our diet is central to the energy problem, and nuclear tries to promise that it can keep us 'in cake'. Clean cake, cheap cake, reliable cake.

"I think that those who do not favor a big nuclear build up are not serious about global warming mitigation." Just because I say no to Strychnine, doesn't mean I'll say yes to Arsenic. Coal and Nuclear are both bad roads to take. If Nuclear can fix their potholes- their complexity, their emissions, their insurance and other externalities.. maybe I'll take that ride. We'll see. But the claims of being the only clean and viable alternative to coal is another unconvincing promise. I don't buy it.

We are accustomed to eating cake.. the solution for the future is not to assume that we have to create a perpetual cake industry.

Translation: "We are accustomed to having power on demand. the solution for the future is not to assume that we have to create a perpetual power on demand industry." At least you are facing up to it. But why is that a good solution? And why is that a better solution than what I am proposing.

'At least you are facing up to it.'

I've never been rosy on that point. I've stated it openly here any number of times. WE CANNOT RELY ON ANY SOURCE PROVIDING US A PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE. Nothing out there will be enough. We have to figure out how to function with FAR less. (And I think we can.. but it will be no picnic getting there)

Petroleum has led us down the garden path, and I don't believe we can count on another adjoining be-pathed garden to hop onto when this one winds down. I accept that there will be new nukes.. but as mighty as they seem, but I don't think they'll pull the load, I think they depend on the oil infrastructure far too heavily (roads, concrete, fuel supply) to weather the coming decades with any reliability.. between technical complexity, political complexity and financial, err, complexity.. there are just too many BIG pieces that are just waiting to fall apart. That's why I have far more trust in a massively parallel system of smaller generators. We know what some of them are already.. one of the biggest being Lovins' 'Negawatts', which is the power we can figure out how NOT to use.

Nuke will be out there in the mix.. and yet I don't trust it to stay there for us, Safe, long-term, affordable. I am glad there are people working the problems, as others are working out other sources. Maybe they'll pull it off.

Best,
Bob Fiske

Another thing to keep in mind is that nuclear generation is more valuable for global warming mitigation than is wind or solar. Nuclear directly displaces coal generation (the primary GW problem) while wind and solar do not.

Each kWh of wind (as opposed to each MW of wind) directly goes to reduce the need for coal production of the same kWh - and it's only when you burn coal that you generate CO2, so the goal should not be to replace MWs, but to replace kWh - and wind is a perfectly good solution to do so.

But you cannot eliminate the need for any coal plants with wind and solar because they often go to 0 kWh production. And I am not sure you can throttle back a coal plant.

You can create a market where wind and solar can dump kWhs on the market when they are intermittently running, to the economic disadvantage of the sources like coal and nuclear that can supply to demand. But in a rational world, those surplus kWhs would not be priced the same as the ones needed to fill shortages. Above a certain percentage for wind and solar, disadvantaging the sources of generation that have to be counted on to respond to demand is crazy. Unless you want a system with chronic shortages where you have to ration supply (probably by price).

Thermal solar energy can be cheaply stored for months if the storage system is large enough. It is just a matter of some pipes and a pile of sand or a vertical shaft drilled deep into the ground if the water table is deep enough.

Above a certain percentage for wind and solar, disadvantaging the sources of generation that have to be counted on to respond to demand is crazy.

Maybe we should worry about that when we get there, not when we're still wondering if 20% is achievable?

I expect that given the number of gas-fired power plants around, there's a lot of flexibility to play with in the system. And making coal "economically disadvantaged" is pretty much the whole point, I'd say, given how much it pollutes and spews carbon...

Maybe we should worry about that when we get there, not when we're still wondering if 20% is achievable?

Agreed. You are the one favoring the hard 20% target. I am saying let's build the mix that will produce the best result.

And making coal "economically disadvantaged" is pretty much the whole point, I'd say, given how much it pollutes and spews carbon...

Yes, but should we also be doing that with nuclear?

I am not sure you can throttle back a coal plant.

It is quite possible, at least for some classes of plant.

you cannot eliminate the need for any coal plants with wind and solar because they often go to 0 kWh production.

You're making several conceptual mistakes here.

  • The issue isn't the number of plants, it's the amount of coal burned.  The less those plants are in use, the better.
  • The lower the utilization of a coal plant goes the easier it is to replace it with natural gas, or hydroelectric, or some new technology like direct-carbon fuel cells, or even batteries.

Nuclear is a direct one-for-one replacement of baseload coal plants.  If you absolutely have to have some generation that goes 24/7, nukes displace coal without compromise.

The issue isn't the number of plants, it's the amount of coal burned. The less those plants are in use, the better.

Yes but unless they can eliminate a plant, it is likely to be run at full capacity because it has the lowest marginal cost for a source that can serve as base load. I am talking about eliminating plants in a whole region.

The lower the utilization of a coal plant goes the easier it is to replace it with natural gas, or hydroelectric, or some new technology like direct-carbon fuel cells, or even batteries.

They are not going to substitute gas for coal if they have a choice because gas is much more expensive. Same is true of batteries. They might run hydro as base load as I assume they do in the Pacific Northwest but not where hydro is in limited supply as it is in most places. If they have the coal plants, they are almost certain to run them at full capacity as much of the time as they can. That's why using nuclear to displace old or needed coal plants is such an effective way to limit global warming.

unless they can eliminate a plant, it is likely to be run at full capacity because it has the lowest marginal cost for a source that can serve as base load.

There are quite a few (small, old, highly-polluting) coal plants in the US which are used largely for peaking.  Neighbors of some of these plants have tried to get them shut down for years, without success.

They are not going to substitute gas for coal if they have a choice because gas is much more expensive.

Fuel is not the only expense.  Maintenance (gas turbines are much cheaper than old coal plants) and emissions permits can also be costly and/or limiting.  Add in the cost of carbon taxes or the value of tradeable quotas (plus the fact that modern gas turbines can have efficiency 50% greater than old coal plants), and gas looks better for everything but base load.